To think you can't be a "nice guy" if you use prostitutes for sex?

[NotMyOriginalName1]

Or can you?

In short, somebody I've known for a number of years openly admits to visiting sex workers and has deluded himself into believing he's one of the good guys and isn't exploitative. He spouts bullshit about having respect for the women he sees and thinks they adore his charming company.

I've lost what respect I have for him.

Unbeknownst to him I have personal experience of these situations, I was a sex worker in my late teens and what lead me there was an abusive relationship. I never felt respected by one single 'customer' in fact it was the 'good guys' who made my skin crawl the most.

Aibu to say he's an exploitative c-u-next-tuesday or am I jaded as a result my own trauma?

No they cannot. They're of the Incel type of 'nice guy'.... so hard done by, by cruel women. They just have 'natural' male urges and 'at least he's not raping anyone'. It's entitlement and expectation of sex. They're vile, backwards and see women as objects.8

It's not possible to be "responsible" when buying sex because the punter has no way of knowing whether the woman is being coerced or desperate.

And even if she is not coerced nor particularly desperate, even if she doesn't think he's disgusting, it is still sex with a woman who doesn't desire him.

How does a man come to think that sort of thing is okay?

My DP, an actual good man, would be disgusted. He would worry that they were trafficked, drugged, abused or manipulated. He wouldn't be able to enjoy himself because he would know it wasn't a mutually enjoyable and consensual ecperience

I haven't RTFT in its entirety, but thought I might as well add my two penneth, seeing as I worked in the "biz" for a few years.

Firstly, I wholeheartedly agree with what Monkeynuts18 said on page 3: "Any man who uses the phrase 'I'm a nice guy' is invariably an utter arsehole.'

I have in the past worked as an independent companion/escort/hooker/prostitute, or whatever you wish to call it. It was my choice of profession at that time, I did it as and when I wanted to, set my own rates, managed the schedule, screened all the clients myself, took care of advertising, accommodation, and so on. I could quit at any point, turn down anyone for any reason or no reason at all, no questions asked.

Drawing upon my own experience of this particular industry, which is completely different to that of the OP's, I can say that I do believe one can be a nice guy and pay for sex. I have had my fair share of bookings with genuinely pleasant people, some of whom I saw regularly and a handful of those I now call friends. Countless older men who lost their spouses, and were looking for sex, superficially, but actually wanted a bit of affection, a reason to smile, something to make them feel good about themselves.

Younger men with confidence issues, too shy to make a move with a girl they liked, needing a confidence boost and a bit of advice to go with that blowjob... :)

Of course, even with my stringent vetting procedures, there were still a few bad apples that made it to my boudoir. I once had to report a threatening stalker to the police. But I still believe that the vast majority of "punters" are just normal men with normal needs. They could buy my consent, yes, but I could have withdrawn it at any point if I wasn't happy, and refunded their cash.

It's really hard when I look at countries like Cambodia/Thailand where most men sleep with (rape actually) prostitutes regularly. Is it possible to condemn entire countries of people and say none of them are 'nice'? It's so embedded in the culture there. I have given up travelling in that region because it's just too fucking depressing. Children/women being forced into it everywhere and then it's treated by westerners like a smutty joke. These people are being raped daily ffs.

In the west, the very fact that men still think it's acceptable to pay for sex is disgusting. They think so little of us.

The worst part for me is that it's the women working as prostitutes who get called dirty/disgusting etc. So much stigma. But not for the guy, who gets off scot-free as usual. People might think he's a bit pathetic but he's not ostracised like women are.

So no, I don't think it's possible to be 'nice' and go to a prostitute, but of course they all fool themselves into thinking they're different. I used to know a guy who was really into transexual women and he went to Thailand and was 'sponsoring' one transexual woman who was his 'gf' and he just COULD NOT see that he was as bad as all the other sex tourists. HE wasn't just using her, he actually liked her. He was SPONSORING her, not paying her for sex.

It was gross. He called himself a feminist too but he was very very very not.

Younger men with confidence issues, too shy to make a move with a girl they liked, needing a confidence boost and a bit of advice to go with that blowjob

Your whole post makes me cringe Psychonaut. I can't decide which part is the worst- the widowers wanting a reason to smile, something to make them feel good about themselves or the quote above. I think the quote just has the edge. What a failure I'd be as a parent if my son were to behave like that.
Everything in it , as NottonightJosepheen said, is normalising prostitution ; indeed you even seem to think of yourself as some sort of counselling service.

OP, ask him if he's that much of a nice guy and those women love it so much then why is he having to pay them?

I don't like prostitution. I think the whole thing is nasty. Paying for sex is nasty and being paid for sex is nasty.

It's a convenience thing with him and the fact he can request whatever sexual acts or roleplays he fancies, without the 'inconvenience' of having to date and get to know the woman first. He outright says "I can't be doing with all that bother" when online dating was suggested to him.

This to me cements my opinion that he sees women as vessels and something he can basically masterbate into, how could he not have such a lowly opinion of a woman if he thinks getting to know one and dating before expecting sex is just too much bother.

I'm trying to be subjective and look at it the other way round but will not be able to change my views unfortunately.

If I was single and saw a nice looking man who I quite fancied.. the thought of offering him money to allow me to use his body for whatever I fancied, makes me cringe. I couldn't do that. Ever. I'd spend the whole time wondering how he felt about what had happened and the time I spent with him, did he enjoy me touching him or did I repulse him. It would knock me sick with worry that he could see me as seedy and gross. I would feel like a rapist, especially knowing that he wouldn't touch me with a barge pole unless he really needed that money in which case he's prepared to put his own wants and feelings aside just so he can get his hands on the money.

Why doesn't he, and other men, think like that? (or the women who go on sex tourism and use male prostitutes)

Why would somebody want to have sex with somebody who isn't equally keen on having sex with them?

How can you have respect for somebody you're prepared to violate knowing they wouldn't look twice unless a (probably much needed) cash incentive was there.

As for the married customers who are sex deprived at home.

If my partner and father of my children was in an accident, terminally ill, or exhausted from parenting and unable to fulfil my sexual urges, could I go behind his back and betray his trust by paying somebody else just because I fancied a quick shag and felt entitled to one, then be able to assure myself that I'm a good woman? Absolutely not

Like a PP mentioned, there are some customers who on the outside seem like pleasant decent people. During my time in that scene I was given presents, taken to nice restaurants, spoiled with extra money, asked how my day has been, had men gaze lovingly into my eyes and tell me how amazing a person I am, enjoy intelligent and meaningful conversations together, buy me Christmas presents and tell me how they'd 'do anything for me and care for me deeply' and offer to be there for me indefinitely if ever I needed anything.

Does any of that change the fact they were paying an abused and coerced woman for sex. Nope.

Nor does it take away from the fact that some of these men had wives at home (who they spoke highly of in some cases) and were prepared to shatter the lives of her and their children, just because he was selfish enough to put his desire to ejaculate before their marriage and family.

I didn't want to sleep with these men, I wouldn't have looked twice if I didn't have a bastard boyfriend forcing my hand and leeching off me for money, beating me when I didn't get it. My situation is not uncommon in prostitution and although I acknowledge that some women do it of their own volition, a large number aren't there because They really want to be.

These so called nice guys, its bollocks to me.

If you see an 18 year old prostitute covered in bruises, why wouldn't you try to get her some help instead of having sex with her, if you were such a good guy?

Selfish, repulsive men.

OP your last two posts nail it for me. Sex is usually supposed to be a two street, you have to give something of yourself to the other person in order that they enjoy the experience. Men who have sex with prostitutes don't care whether their sexual partners have a good time or not, it's the ultimate in selfishness and coldness IMO.

And that's not even to mention the absolutely horrific situation of many women who are prostitutes and the punters lack of even basic concern for their circumstances.

Yep exactly.

Even if you take away everything else and just look at that one core aspect, it's still abhorrent and wrong.

They are having sex with somebody when they don't give a shiny shit whether they really want to do it or not. This, to me, is murky territory and Rachel Moran can be forgiven for calling them gentle rapists.

You get the deluded ones who believe the prostitutes are sex mad nymphos who do the job because they love sex so much, but even men of average intelligence must question why, if its all about the sex, does money need to exchange hands in the first place.

If it was just about no strings sex for these highly sexed women then they'd find them on tinder looking for one night stands and not adult work looking for money.

A brief scan over some well known punting and review sites tells women everything they need to know about the mindset of the man buying sex. Any man who attempts to speak highly of a prostitute there is labeled "fluffy" by the status quo and laughed off the pages.

I've heard so many horrible stories of women who have been forced into prostitution against their will. Other cases of women who are in situations where they really don't see an alternative way of surviving. A large number have been sexually abused as well.

Women from Asian cultures who have been shamed by their families can find themselves very easily in situations where they can't find a way out.

How can a man who knows what some of these women have been through just use them for an easy shag? Okay, maybe some are naive enough not to realise this reality, but surely when it's pointed out to them they wouldn't want to add to the abuse these women are suffering? Because how would they know???

Completely agree with your last 5 posts OP

Worth mentioning, also, that men who are very vocal about how much they hate and despise sex workers are usually men to be avoided. Because these are men who really don't like women.

There's always been a strand of feminism which is prurient, officious and puritanical, and feminists of that type are the ones happiest palling up with the religious rightwingers to attack and punish sex workers, porn performers, etc. (The men on the religious right who are noisiest about how 'dirty' and 'disgusting' sex workers are do tend to be the ones who er, actually, visit sex workers, but that's another story.)

There's always been a strand of feminism which is prurient, officious and puritanical

There's also always been a strand of sexism which dismisses women's concerns about anything sexual as prudish, pearl-clutching hand-wringing hysteria. I suspect that strand is wider.

One customer I used to see regularly (who ended up stalking me for six months) was married with a wife and two teenagers at home, thought of himself as one of the nice ones.

He always tried to blur boundaries and get too familiar with the young girls he frequented, he ended up in a spot of bother with another client of one of the girls as he took it upon himself to contact this other punter on the girls behalf, making some threat or other because that punter had upset the girl in some way.

It all came to a head when punter #2 found out his details and threatened to out him to his wife to which 'nice guy' said "come on mate let's not cause all of this trouble over a whore she's not worth it"

He relayed the sequence of events and subsequent conversation to me personally.

This was supposed to be somebody who had 'a lot of respect' for the girls.

The same 'nice guy' went out of his way to get me into shit with my then (abusive) boyfriend, knowing I was being hit and trying to stir up friction knowing I'd be hit again. But he was lovely and such a friend? BS.

I've had another 'nice guy' physically stalk me for two years and make my life a living hell because apparently I now owed him all of the money back that he'd paid me for sex (which went to my boyfriend) because I didn't want to be his girlfriend.

I don't think, as a guy, I have the right to wade in too much on the ethics of if women can actually go into sex work 'happily' - I've read a lot of posts by NotTheFordType and have no reason not to believe her, but I could personally never believe 'happy' prostitutes weren't a tiny minority at most.

But what I can offer from a guy's perspective, and why I can never think of it as 'ok' :

I don't know which prostitutes, if any, are 'happy.' I could receive the most brilliant smile and seemingly enthusiastic experience from a sex worker, and still not 'know' that they haven't been coerced or in silent screaming misery inside. I can never 'know' that they're not dying inside at my touch. It's impossible for me to know these things. It's impossible for any man to know. That's why I could never bring myself to do it and why I have a hard time empathising with men who do.

nottonight well put.

@NewLevelsOfTiredness If only the buyers of sex stopped to think about what you've said, you are spot on.

Unfortunately for the majority of punters their selfish perceived needs trumps the emotional well being of the sex worker.

"There's always been a strand of feminism which is prurient, officious and puritanical, and feminists of that type are the ones happiest palling up with the religious rightwingers to attack and punish sex workers, porn performers, etc"
There's always been a strand of "feminism" which is happy to show how liberal it is by palling up with men in the justification of the exploitation of other women and to dismiss any concerns as puritanical and "pearl clutching" and to characterise those concerns as attacks on women in the sex industry rather than attacks on men. Rather icky, actually.