To say its not a disease its a habit which started with choice. Alcoholism

[TreeFu]

My mother is a prolific binge drinker much to the detriment of myself and others around her, she has accepted she has a problem with drink but cannot be bothered to do anything to change her habits.

She can and does go for periods of time without touching one drop of alcohol, this is when she has no money to access it. During those periods she is just fine without it but as soon as she has access to money, she will binge until it runs out.

AIBU to believe this has nothing to do with disease and is down to her being weak willed, selfish and enjoying booze more than she cares about the wellbeing of those around her.

I agree monkey. Very harsh replies that you don’t deserve op.

This is a woman who will sit with a smirk on her face and Laugh about how much she enjoys a drink, whilst I sit opposite her with tears in my eyes in complete despair about the fact she has yet another bump or bruise on her face which has already aged ten years in the past three

Yes, yes, yes.

I turn down her offer to start drinking at 1pm (because I have three young kids to look after/have to drive later/& drink is a demon I still try and fight, for my children's sake) and I get fucking mocked and laughed at. "Oh, look at Saint Love! Such a Saint, not drinking!" (said in nasty tones). She will then not talk to me for choosing not to drink for the next hour, whilst she steadily downs what she thinks is a sneaky glass of gin hidden in lemonade over the course of the day. Get's verbally nasty. Passive aggressive. Doesn't remember anything. I hate it. She also does the emotional blackmail thing about why I rarely now go to see her with the kids, and gets very very nasty if I even so much as skirt the mention of alcohol. She will never give it up, in order to be a better grandparent.

Alcohol means more to them. As I said before - YANBU

The OP’s original question was about it being an addiction or choice.
It is difficult living with family members that have this .

Yanbu. I don’t care if it’s a disease or not. My mum has shown my sister and I over the years that we will always come second to alcohol. Now you imagine that. That your parent will never put you first. Ever.
I love my mum but to have that knowledge is really upsetting and I can’t ever imagine not putting my kids first. So no I don’t give a shit if it’s a disease either tbh.

It sounds like perhaps your mum is not an alcoholic if she experiences no withdrawal symptoms and is able to stop when money is an issue.

I actually think alcoholism IS a disease. As another poster said I believe here’s research about a pre-disposition to become addicted. I believe this about anorexia/bulimia too. Of course environment and external factors play a part but I do think its something to do with the genes.

Maybe she is what is called a functioning alcoholic, @TreeFu.

My dh could go weeks without drinking - he had to, for work, but when he could have a drink, he could never stop at one - the whole bottle of wine would vanish, or he’d buy some beers and drink some in the utility room, in secret, so I only saw him drink one.

He knows he has no ‘off’ switch, when it comes to alcohol, so he does not drink - but he had to hit rock bottom before he could make that decision.

I have an aunt who was an alcoholic - she only gave up when she developed cirrhosis of the liver and needed a transplant. Sadly she died before she got one.

It is a horrible, destructive disease, for the person concerned and their family too - which is why I think you may need to take some steps back and protect/look after yourself.

WHen the person physically depends on alcohol, gets physical symptoms when deprived of it, when measureable changes happen to their bodies, eg to their liver and other organs then you can't call it anything other than a disease, added to that the mental dependence on drink then alcoholism is definitely a disease. Of course there are people who use alcohol as a crutch but who are not (yet) physically dependant on it, I think they are probably in the early stages of a disease, just as you can be in the early stages of any disease but still appear healthy.

I think YABU to suggest it is merely a habit. I it starts that way but once it becomes severe enough it is a disease.

Though I do understand how you personally feel this way due to the situation with you mum.

Stressed too soon, with help they can be helped to overcome the early stages of dependance without becoming alcoholic.

I agree with you, OP.

I'm sure someone in stage 4 cancer, for example, would be delighted to have had an opportunity at stage 1 to take stock/have a firm word in the mirror and make lifestyle changes to arrest its progress.

I've had her stay at my house for 7 days straight, booze free, no sweating or shakes. It may sound unbelievable to people who've witnessed alcoholics in the grip of physical withdrawals but she didn't get these, she would be fine.She has more control of her habit than some people would have and that's why I find it intolerable..I would understand if she woke up shaking

This. OP, my mum is the same. When she has stayed with me, though only for one night a time admittedly, I "forget" to buy in alcohol for her - she now brings her own, so I haven't asked if she's wanted to stay over in a while. But when I used to have a bottle of wine in, she just had to sneak in for more whilst she thought I wasn;t looking. Butwhen she had a night off when she was at mine and I "forgot" to buy it in, she had no shakes etc. But she drinks at LEAST a bottle a night, and has done since I was a child (I'm 35 now), and though she lies about going nights without, I know for a fact she hasn't had a night off for years, except when she's at mine, and she doesn't wake up with the shakes. She CHOOSES alcohol. I fucking hate it, not being able to talk to her her 3pm because she won't remember, because she gets nasty, because she gets marty-y. Sorry for ranting. x

YANBU to feel frustrated and upset that your DM doesn't appear to see how much it upsets you, and that she appears to 'choose alcohol above you', or that you are 'not (as) important to her (as alcohol)'.

However, as an alcoholic myself, who has been in recovery for 7 years (yeay me!), I can tell you that an addict will not change until they are ready to. It may be that it will take a serious health scare, or that they have to hit 'rock bottom' (which is what happened to me). My rock bottom dawned when I realised that I wanted to drink more than I wanted to be a Mum any more. I would willingly have taken myself away and left my young children if it meant I could drink. I was utterly horrified and began my recovery.

My DM has suffered from Bipolar Disorder since I was 14 and tried to kill herself 4 times when I was 14-16. At the time I was so angry with her (on the inside), because it felt like I wasn't important enough to her to want to live. I understand now that this was the depression talking to her, just as my alcoholism told me that fulfilling it's needs were more important than parenting my children.

You are clearly finding this incredibly painful - understandably so. All you can realistically do, if you can't stand by and watch it happen, is to sit down and tell her how it's making you feel, how worried you are and that it makes it too hard for you to be around her. Let her know that once she's ready, you will be the first one there to help her with her recovery and will support her in every way you can, but until then, you need to go NC.

Then you do it. You go NC and you hope and pray that she will come to the decision to stop and will ask for your help in doing so.

It's horrible, I know and I'm so sad for you having to go through this. I wish you all the best xx

Tbh when you think they’re having alcohol free nights they’re probably sneaking it in

I think people who have lived with someone with an addiction will see them making those choices and really, really struggle to see it as an illness like depression or cancer that people randomly get. Even with a smoker getting lung cancer they are only harming themselves. It's rare an alcoholic only harms themself

That doesn't mean it isn't a condition, though. Some mental illnesses are terribly hard to live with - I have schizoaffective bipolar disorder, for example. I know I've been difficult for my family to cope with in the past (although I'm currently in remission) but you'd not say (I hope) that I chose to hallucinate, for example. I totally can see that addiction is a terrible disease for loved ones to live with, but that doesn't make it a choice.

It's not a habit and eventually it's not a choice. I think you're feeling like this because of the pain of having to live with a mother who is an alcoholic and I completely understand that. It's painful, it's horrible and sympathy does wear thin. My brother was a heroin addict and I tried to care beyond when I could no longer bear it. He overdosed in my parents' bathroom one Christmas and I lost it. I was kicking him in the stomach and I was so ashamed afterwards, but I was so angry that he would do this to them and so scared that he would die and all over so done with it, so completely done with it.

I believed that he chose it, and in a small way he did, but he didn't chose it to ruin his life. He thought taking drugs was fun and made him cool. And then he didn't and they didn't. He had all manner of issues that I think lead him to drugs and in the end he had no real control over what he did or who he was. I wanted him to stop but he didn't and one of the reasons was he was scared. I think a lot of addicts are. They're scared of failing, they're scared of who they will be outside of the only life they know. They're scared of dying and they're also scared of living. It's a horrible painful thing to have to watch and to be totally helpless, unable to stop the downward path their life is taking.

Your mum is ill. You know it. She knows it. You're allowed to be angry, you're allowed to walk away. There is only so much you can do, but please don't think it's just a habit and that she's made a choice to be the way she is. As for rehab and AA etc. The fact is that they work for a very small percentage of addicts. We're lead to believe that they "work" and they can, but for many people they're of no use whatsoever. We are finally getting to a place where there are new drugs that really do help, that are about treating the medical side of addiction by focusing on the neurological issues that cause addicts to find it almost impossible to stop.

I really hope that your mum can find a treatment that works for her, when she makes the decision to help herself. In the meantime if you need to walk away, just do it. I did. It was the only thing I could do and I felt guilty and still do sometimes, but we can't save other people and we need to look after our own mental health.

In the end I loved my brother but I didn't like him. It broke my heart, but it was what it was.

I'm sure someone in stage 4 cancer, for example, would be delighted to have had an opportunity at stage 1 to take stock/have a firm word in the mirror and make lifestyle changes to arrest its progress

It's not a very palatable thing to say, but there is a significant lifestyle component in lots of cancers, lung cancer being the most obvious, but lots of the others such as bowel and stomach cancer are linked to obesity, diet, lack of exercise and, ironically, alcohol consumption, even at very moderate levels. Even when you get breast cancer, some people's outcomes are better if they exercise.

I find this research quite controversial, some of this may be correlational (the people who were the most able to exercise may have then had the best outcomes) but there can be finger-pointing in many diseases if you go down that route, even dementia.

Finger-pointing doesn't help anyone.

For what it's worth, neurobiological models suggest that the brain is altered by repeated exposure to drugs and alcohol. That might mean that the person doesn't need to use every day, but when they do use, their use is compulsive, out of control and detrimental to all around them.

Binge-drinking is incredibly risky and can easily result in early death, as I'm sure you know OP and your mum also knows. You have to ask yourself, if it is just a matter of her 'choice', then why would she risk an early death?

I don't believe your mum has the same 'choice' over drinking as I do, to be honest, she's probably developed a binge-drinking disorder over time and is at risk every time she binges.

This is very sad, and not your fault, and you are right to feel angry, but she isn't 'choosing alcohol' over you, her brain is now finely attuned to alcohol through both habit and neurological changes, and it may well take her to an early grave. That isn't incompatible with enjoyment of course, she may enjoy herself when she drinks but that doesn't mean she can choose easily to stop.

I think there's a difference between people who use alcohol as their excuse to abuse others, people who are drinking to escape trauma/other problems, and those whose drinking spiralled out of control from what was initially nothing more than social/recreational drinking...

The first category like to deploy the "I was drunk, it's not my fault" excuse, even though they didn't drink enough to ever be out of control of their own actions and choices. They just know if they drink to some extent and then play it up they can get away with more abuse. Whether or not they are also dependent on alcohol and/or have a high tolerance is to a degree separate from their choice to use alcohol as an excuse to engage in even more vile behaviour. They use it as a shield to hide behind and to enable them to be as abusive as they still want to be whilst sober.

Being on the receiving end of their behaviour is shit and unacceptable either way, but it's not the same as someone who is genuinely out of control and whose behaviour would change if the alcohol element was changed. People who use alcohol as their excuse to abuse others have no desire to stop drinking because they have no desire to stop abusing people.

"It's not a habit and eventually it's not a choice."

I think that is the thing that's hard to understand though-how people get to the point that it's no longer a choice.

My husband is a recovering alcoholic. It kind of crept up on him and while he was in active addiction he was hell to be with. He kept trying to stop but only lasted a few days. He was lucky and went to rehab. That worked for a bit but then he started again. It got so bad he ended up in a mental hospital. But he has had to learn how to live without alcohol. I don’t know if I will ever completely trust him again and I don’t know if today will be the day he lapses again. It is so hard. I don’t know if it’s an illness or not but I know my Dh had serious mental health issues he was covering up with alcohol.

The thing is, for everyone around the addict life is so hard and while they are drinking nothing you do will have any affect. I have learnt that I didn’t cause it, I can’t control it and I can’t cure it. ( I think that’s al anon wisdom). The most important thing is you look after yourself and let them get on with it until hopefully they are ready to try and change.

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I am sorry for everything you've been put through. It sounds harrowing.

I don't agree with the dis-ease model, and some people believe this is a barrier to people getting better. In most cases I believe there is a habit model and addiction model (psychological and physical). It doesn't mean its not strong. I also believe if the habit and addiction gets stronger to the point where there are major changes in the body and the brain taking place, then the addiction is developing into a kind of illness. But I don't think you can quite compare it with malaria or cancer, because in the case of addictions there is still an active human agent, except possibly in the very last stages. With malaria this is not the case.

Also, several people on this thread have mentioned their parent doesn't have physical withdrawal- this doesn't mean they don't have alcohol use disorder. Withdrawal varies from person to person and you should be grateful they are not physically shaking/addicted in that sense, because that makes their risk of death if they ever stop drinking higher and needs to be medically managed.

The OP's mum has a different pattern of drinking, which is episodes of bingeing, that's dangerous in a different way mainly due to overloading body/liver and can become irreversible in some stages and cause death, even though the person didn't drink every day.

Lots of myths on this thread about alcohol disorders. They are incredibly destructive though, to family and friends, that's one certainty.

I'm with you op I'm also a child of an alcoholic who died as is dh.
I'm sorry but it's not a fucking disease. I understand that once it takes a hold of you it's incredibly hard to stop but before it gets to that point you have choices and i just don't understand why you would choose to drink over your children.
Why when you feel yourself becoming dependant would you not stop?

@shecamefromgreece - as I said earlier, I believe that some people are predisposed towards developing addictions, so two people can make exactly the same decisions about drinking, at the start, and one will become alcoholic and the other one won’t - and the person who is predisposed will probably not know they are, so will think that what they are doing is normal, and the same as everyone else, until it is too late.

I understand how hard it is to accept this, when you are the person who is suffering because a parent or spouse is alcoholic, but blaming them, or calling them weak willed, won’t change them.

As I said to @TreeFu - you have every right to put yourself first, and to withdraw from an alcoholic friend or family member who is damaging your health or emotional or psychological wellbeing.

I would recommend AlAnon - the support group for the families of alcoholics.

Also, several people on this thread have mentioned their parent doesn't have physical withdrawal- this doesn't mean they don't have alcohol use disorder

No one said they didn't. OP mentions it in the sense of, so it's not so deeply ingrained they physically need to drink. As did I. I didn't say it meant my mother doesn't have an alcohol use disorder. I mentioned it in the sense she is more able to give it up, but chooses not to.