To say its not a disease its a habit which started with choice. Alcoholism

[TreeFu]

My mother is a prolific binge drinker much to the detriment of myself and others around her, she has accepted she has a problem with drink but cannot be bothered to do anything to change her habits.

She can and does go for periods of time without touching one drop of alcohol, this is when she has no money to access it. During those periods she is just fine without it but as soon as she has access to money, she will binge until it runs out.

AIBU to believe this has nothing to do with disease and is down to her being weak willed, selfish and enjoying booze more than she cares about the wellbeing of those around her.

@TheNavigator - I guess the distinction is between alcoholics and people who abuse alcohol. I think that the former are addicted to alcohol or dependant on it for physical or psychological reasons, whereas the latter do, as you say, choose to drink to excess without caring about the effects on their families and loved ones.

I’m no expert, but I do think it may be possible to drink to excess without being addicted, and if this is true, then clearly someone like that would deserve condemnation for their deliberate mistreatment of the people around them.

@TheNavigator I concede my post to Blood was unnecessarily harsh however I still take issue with 'some are', I think most are not purely self-indulgent. Very very few - if any - are alcoholics out of choice.

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius It's a fine line though. Like alcoholics, those who abuse alcohol due it usually to escape something. People who abuse alcohol usually do it to escape some type of pain.

SalemBlackCat I think you are quite naive, you have a specific experience and have used that to generalise about all alcoholics. The 'escaping pain' view is a nice get out of jail free card, but just think on. Life is about pain, we all experience it. We are not all alcoholics. So that is only an excuse, not a reason. The reasons are far more complex and diverse than the poor alcoholic blotting out pain.

Anyone who has had a close family member who is an alcoholic has suffered greatly and is entitled to process and respond to that however they wish. Nothing and no one can stop an alcoholic drinking except the alcoholic, the family can only protect themselves and are allowed to feel pain, anger, bitterness, compassion rage or whatever damn emotion they feel. Don't start policing emotions you have no right to judge.

@TheNavigator On the contrary, I feel you are quite naive. I have spoken against people like yourself who are doing the generalising.

"Life is about pain, we all experience it. We are not all alcoholics."

And there you go, that is exactly the point I was making. That is because many people suffer more pain than others. But you are generalising saying that alcoholics can be self-indulgent. What you see as self-indulgence, is someone dealing with pain.

And I never said a person can't feel whatever emotion they wish, dealing with a parent who is an alcoholic is a traumatic thing. It exhausts you on many levels. You feel shame, embarrassment, bitterness, anger at the happy life you see friends have with their parents and you resent that your alcoholic parent's life revolves around opening time at the pub. Been there, done that, still have the memories of sitting with him outside waiting for opening time.
I've blocked out more painful memories than you could imagine so please don't lecture me. HOWEVER, emotions are different from facts. Stating outright that no alcoholic deserves sympathy is simply not helpful, healthy nor reality.

Salem I am not going to argue with you, as I stated family members are entitle to feel whatever emotions they feel and yours are as valid as anyones. What you do not have is the right to sit in judgement on people who have different experiences and have responded to those experiences in the way that is valid for them. The family of alcoholics deserve endless compassion - remember, they didn't cause it, they can't control it and they can't cure it. All the responsibility is on the alcoholic and until they accept that they will never be well.

@TheNavigator if you read back, you will see I was not the one sitting in judgement on people who have different experiences. The person I originally replied to made a blanket statement - a judgement that all alcoholics deserve no sympathy. If that isn't a judgement, then what is?
I was the one who pointed out that people have different experiences and traumas in their life, hence all alcoholics should not be judged in such blanket terms. You've either got the posters around the wrong way, or you misinterpreted what I said. I was the one taking a stand against sitting in judgement of alcoholics.

Salem I think you were pretty judgy to another poster, or have you forgotten typing this:

'So wonderful to live a privileged life, isn't it? Maybe trying thinking some more. You may claim you have thick skin, others may claim you are thick in the head or simply don't possess logic, compassion or clarity of thought.'

It sounds judgemental to me and certainly unkind, on a thread where I think you can be confident posters will have responded based on their own, gruelling, past experiences.

TheNavigator It appears you are choosing to see only what you want to see. The person I was responding to said this:
"I'm sorry but alcoholics deserve no sympathy."
If that is not judgemental, then I don't know what is. So, what are you saying? She can be judgemental of alcoholics, but I shouldn't be judgemental of the judgemental? Its a bit like the tolerance of intolerance/intolerance of intolerance thing.

" They chose to drink themselves nearly to death and hurt everybody around them."
Another part of the judgemental attitude of the poster. And factually incorrect. No one chooses to drink themselves nearly to death (unless they are suicidal and combine it with tablets, of course).

I already conceded that I was harsh to to poster. However I find it passing strange that it is ok for her to be judgemental about alcoholics including orphaned sexually abused alcoholics, but it's not ok for me to point out that judgementalism? She is judgemental against alcoholics. I am judgemental against her being judgemental. She already knew she could be seen as being judgemental and foreshadowed being 'flamed' so it's not like she didn't know she could be seen as being judgemental and goady. Sigh anyway, I'm out of here for now.

I agree with navigator

people have different experiences and traumas in their life,
children of alcoholics certainly do, and not all of them by any means seek solace at the bottom of a bottle or expect everyone to pity them

Alcoholics are not just self-indulgent people who only put themselves first.
I have met plenty who fit this description

I’m sure people have said this already as I haven’t RTFT yet but it’s ridiculous and naive to say a disease is something someone has no control over, lung cancer is a disease, does it cease being a disease if the person smoked for a decade first?

Anyway YABVU OP to say that alcoholism is merely being weak willed and selfish. My mum died of alcoholism and I can still see it took over her and she had very little control of it, and that she tried her absolute hardest to beat it and it still killed her.

Your issues with your mum and personal and how you feel about her doesn’t dictate the nature of something as complex and multi faceted as addiction.

Have you ever read the 12 steps? Alcoholics/addicts are actually powerless over their disease- they are not 'in control' - their poison is- only when they accept that and choose a path of recovery can they fight to overcome it- that's they only turning point that enables change- and it's very much down to the individual to battle their demon, their disease, their addict.

Hate the disease, not the person

Those who are saying ‘alcoholics don’t get my sympathy’... okay? What a weird thing to state. You don’t owe anyone your sympathy. Plenty of us do care about people with addictions and do what we can to support them and reduce stigma and make it easier to seek treatment. Pretty sure your sympathy isn’t missed.

I don't know. My father's alcoholism was caused by PTSD,anxiety and depression. He definitely could have done more to overcome these issues, but they also went untreated for so long that it was so hard for him to even start to tackle them. And by then the alcoholism was so bad. I agree that he could have beaten it if he really wanted to, but there are bigger things than anyone can know going on with a person that contribute to addiction.

I think it's usually linked to mental health. I think something has happened to them they couldn't cope with which led them to relying on alcohol.

I dont agree that it's not a diseased but can see you are hurting from all she has put you through. You can't make her stop but you can decide whether you want that in your life or not.

Mil died from alcoholism at 51. No1 wants to go at at that age. I completely sympathise with your situation.

Some people seem almost proud of being the sort of person to say ‘no sympathy from me’ even though it doesn’t reflect well on them.

I think perhaps some people have had to build a very hard shell to protect themselves from the endless damaging behaviour of having an alcoholic in the family, where the only power they have is to seek to protect themselves from the relentless damage and hurt. That seems so obvious to me I am amazed other cannot see it.

To me it just doesn't matter if alcoholism is labelled a disease or not. The only difference I can see that that can make is that the afflicted person can then use the "disease" label as an excuse or to remove themselves from taking responsibility for their drinking, should they be so inclined. My mum tells me all the time that she has a disease, it means she doesn't have to say sorry for name calling, hitting, spoiling occasions, etc.

Whichever leads me on to the point I really want to make; That the alcoholism is a separate issue to the lack of character of your dm op. And I say this with love and kindness. Not all alcoholics are arseholes. Our mums are alcoholics and arseholes.
I am currently nc and it's hard but I'm blossoming (6 mths or so).
I decided I deserve better and it turns out I do

It's a bit like eating disorders. There's some free will involved there. Just eat something or stop eating as much. And that's where the problem is. Alcoholism and eating disorders are just physical manifestations of mental problems and anxiety.

It's a bit of both as far as I can see. Some people do seem to be predisposed to addiction, it's runs in families (nature vs nurture is of course a debate) but not everyone acts on urges. It isn't "just like other diseases" because there's an element of choice - you don't choose cancer or heart disease even though lifestyle can contribute, but you can 100% solve alcoholism by not drinking.

More research is needed on the mechanism for addiction and controlling urges but medicine won't have a solution in full, we have that in ourselves.

My friends husband died of an overdose, he was an alcoholic and progressed to hard drugs - I saw what he put her through, but he could have stopped, he knew how to but went back on the booze because he loved the feeling it gave him. He chose to drink over his wife and kids, that's not disease that's being selfish

My DM went to her appointment today at the drug and alcohol support center, they did an assessment which consisted of lots of questions and a breathalyser to see how much alcohol was in her system. Her result was zero and she hasn't drank since Saturday, I hope this continues into next week when she gets paid again but I won't get my hopes up.

Since the hallucinations on Friday and some mild shaking on Saturday she's had no withdrawals at all despite no alcohol which leaves me confused about whether she's physically addicted or not. The support worker she met with said the hallucinations and shaking were a direct result of drinking constantly over a period of days.

She's going on tablets and we'll get a call in the next two days for her to meet with a member of the outreach team, I can't remember the name of the tablets but it wasn't "antabuse" unless there's another name for them. I'll find out.

My brothers adoptive mother also has a problem with alcohol and she was taking "antabuse" but continued to drink, so dbro isn't getting his hopes up.

When we were in the center waiting room there was a man my mother's age who engaged us in conversation, he was a lovely guy and remarkably intelligent - but seriously unwell. He had acute pancreatic problems, told us how he'd lost control of his bladder and bowels and was in very bad health. He was relaying his experience of watching another man die in hospital from the same condition, albeit only slightly worse than he has it right now.

He was saying how he'd overcome heroin and cocaine addictions but the alcohol was the thing killing him.

I haven't stopped thinking about that man for the rest of the day and am petrified of my DM ending up like that, to look at them both they seem worlds apart (when DM is sober you'd never know she binges) but that may well be her one day. Horrible.

You’d be surprised how fast alcoholism can develop and become fatal OP. I would keep it in the back of your mind that a) your mum may never be able to overcome this and she may die and b) you have zero power to stop or affect her drinking.

My lovely smart mum went from being fine to dead in 2.5 years due to becoming an alcoholic. When she died it was a relief as I’ve never witnessed suffering like she went through in those two and a half years. It’s a horrible thing to try and deal with, whether you call it a disease or a lack of self control doesn’t change how horrendous it is for the drinker and those around them. I learned a lot from supporting my lovely mum as she drank herself to death.

Alcoholism and addiction are by their very nature selfish diseases, and as said before, if left untreated, terminal.

It attacks an individual - the awful, painful consequences of that is it then goes on to attack everyone within its reach.....to an extent the 'choice' thats being talked about need to be taught to an addict- in how to make the right one, to an addict 'picking up' is not a concious decision.

It is complex, and individual - and recovery rates are low - but there is always hope and a path - for everyone involved - including removing yourself away from the person effected - it actually often helps them in many circumstances come to a realisation that the only option is to change.

Treefu I understand your urge to help your mum, I really do. I wonder if you benefited from today though?
Your mum is capable of making these appointments for herself and attending them without you. I feel like you're taking responsibility for her health and well-being which ime ultimately leads to heartbreak when it comes to aca's.
Am I right in thinking you're pg? Do you really need to be putting yourself through this atm?

I don't think me going with her did me any good, apart from the relief of knowing she actually went, iyswim? I do take more responsibility for her than I should do and I'm trying to withdraw and not "give" so much, but as soon as I see a flicker of hope I'm ready to bend over backwards for her again.

It's blind hope, isn't it?

Yep I'm pregnant, and have a 10 month old at home who need me