to think that Labour's stance on moped ramming is stupid

[longfingernails]

The Metropolitan Police have been knocking over moped muggers with their cars, and releasing the footage as a deterrent. It's a fantastic idea which has cut moped crime dramatically.

Predictably, the Shadow Home Secretary has said 'it shouldn't be legal for anyone'.

Why is Labour's instinct always to side with the scumbag criminals over the victims, the police and the decent people?

the "criminal" is not a criminal until he is issued a "criminal" conviction

WRONG!!!!

The dictionary defines a criminal as someone who commits a crime. Pretty obvious really, the clue is in the first 4 letters of the word.

You are a criminal if you commit a crime, even though you may never be caught or convicted. Also, you can be wrongly convicted, in which case you are not a criminal, even though you are defined and treated as one.

Overly semantic, Craft.

Not that that undermines the argument for knocking off their scooters people suspected of crime who are fleeing the police.

@JoyofSticks
What happens when members of the public take it into their own hands and decide to knock people off their mopeds?

Well something similar to someone a little while ago. Not knocked off his illegal bike (which he was using to terrorise the local community) by a car, but one resident had had enough of the police being able to do nothing to stop this happening and so he took matters into his own hands. He lay in wait and belted him with a shovel - the rider died, the guy was jailed.
The unofficial grape vine says that the young lad was wearing a balaclava to hide his identity but not a helmet so the police wouldn't chase him.
Been far better for everyone concerned if that bike had been nudged and he'd had a few scrapes and bruises and a jail term than what's happened now.
I'm by no means condoning the action of that man, but I could see it happening again if the police don't take action to stop it now.

I'm not in London but had my phone stolen after a curb mount by one of these little darlings. A prolific one who seriously hurt a woman doing the same the week before when her instinct was to hold onto her bag not let go so she was dragged along The police arrest him weekly find a big stash in his scummy mums house and he gets a slap on the wrist a few weeks later. I'd gladly be the one to nudge him with the car.

Where this is going is that these crimes will all but disappear due to Police action. The criminals will then devise some other street crime, possibly related to development of what people carry as personal belongings or other change in public behaviour. I remember about 20-25 years ago, the streets were littered with broken glass from smashed car windows because people had started having expensive hifi and phones in their car with little development in how to look after those things. We then got hifi that you could remove from your car and it was quite a status symbol to have your car radio or phone sitting in the table next to you in a cafe (if you could find one) or restaurant.

I'm sorry, you're saying that the police doing something will make members of the public think it's okay?

So why aren't vigilantes using batons, handcuffs and pepper spray on louts in the street every day?

Sorry, but that has to be the stupidest argument against this policy so far. Just because ambulances drive through red lights doesn't mean that i think it's okay to do the same.

I'm in two minds about it. I am all for capital punishment but the majority of people that do this crime are under 18.

I work as a youth worker at a youth project. So I'm going to be asking them this question tonight! I think it basically says that you have no right to anything if you steal. Ok that statement on its own is fine. Same as if someone breaks into your house you have the right to defend your home. But let's see where this could go. Does this mean in the future that any crime is punishable by force like in the videos? What if your scared didn't do anything and are just running? What happens if your being blackmailed.

I think this could be a slippery slope to wash their hands of a problem. Instead of focusing on why the crime has risen and working to find a solution that's a Benefit to communities.

That’s no doubt true Davros. Some years ago mobile phone theft was worse than now because phones couldn’t be remotely disabled. As I understand it, they’re only stolen for their screens now, so much less incentive to steal them. Theft of (not from) unoccupied cars is lower now too, because of better security and the use of trackers.

But we should be allowing the police to catch crims whatever the mode of crime. Including by knocking over the mopeds of fleeing suspects.

It’s true that we need to do more to prevent crime as a lifestyle. But that doesn’t preclude enforcement.

And so what if they’re under 18? They’re not children.

What happens when members of the public take it into their own hands and decide to knock people off their mopeds?

This is ridiculous.... So basically the police can’t do anything that a member of the public wouldn't be permitted to do, in case some stupid member of the public thinks they can copy them!

Perhaps we should ban police from driving in excess of the speed limit with blue lights on in case the public think they can put blue lights on their cars and do the same? And let’s not allow them to put suspects arrested for a crime into a cell, as it may inspire people to lock suspected criminals up in their garage! Whilst we’re at it, let’s ban police uniform in case anyone tries to dress up and impersonate an officer.

And so what if they’re under 18? They’re not children

When you nudge them off a moped, you don't know how old they are, 14, 12, 10 yo pillion? and when caught will be sentenced as "children" which is correct.

This attitude was prevalent in Rotherham, these girls were sluts and chose this (so called) "life style" so nothing was done to deal with the causes.

In the unlikely event that children are the ones in the moped gangs, they still need to be stopped and better a tactical move than a high speed chase. Anyway I'm pretty sure acid and blades don't suddenly become harmless to the public because an under 18 is holding them.

The girls in Rotherham weren't harming the public. If there are young children involved in these gangs then of course they need help and support. That doesn't mean the police stand back and do nothing when there is a danger to the public from their actions.

Does this mean in the future that any crime is punishable by force like in the videos?

The police are not knocking them off their mopeds to “punish” them - that would be weird - but to apprehend them so they can be arrested.

Sure some of these "kids" might be robbing because they don't have a snooker table in the local community centre but some of them will be doing if for the prestige and because it's regarded as cool to steal and say fuck you to the police and do a pose looking hard. They think they are gangsters. How do you change that mindset so that they realise stealing is wrong and being a criminal is not cool? How do you change peer pressure and culture 180 degrees?

The police arrest him weekly find a big stash in his scummy mums house and he gets a slap on the wrist a few weeks later. I'd gladly be the one to nudge him with the car. But why is he only getting a slap on the wrist?

See this is what happens when you lose respect for the police

The very fact that posters are still throwing Jean Charles de Menezes' name around after 13 years goes to demonstrate how extremely rare this tragic incident, which occurred in a heightened rate of security after a terrorist act, really is.

I think Buswankeress nailed it with her precis really. Crack on Met Police, in my view.

It's a deterrent. If it makes potential moped muggers think twice then I'm all for it.

I was told anecdotally* that in the late 70s/early 80s armed robberies were reduced when the Met Police said they would respond with firearms themselves.

*Civvie pub talk - can't verify with statistics/Daily mail links

Oh hesta look at the little moppets having japes! Now if only they had somewhere to play airhockey, get kwenchycups and 10p space raiders!

They will think twice when it becomes too difficult to make enough money and they stop enjoying it

To be fair I think this comes from Diane Abbot - one of the many reasons why the momentum party is behind in the polls even with the hopeless government ..

Most people don’t agree with her

If the moped ridden by one of these muggers is stolen, and the police deliberately ram it and wreck it, who pays the insurance?

Not who we think should pay, who is actually liable?

I was told anecdotally that in the late 70s/early 80s armed robberies were reduced when the Met Police said they would respond with firearms themselves.

I’ve heard that too. A friend who works in criminal defence also told me that massively increased sentences worked very quickly in organised armed robbery. Apparently the most prolific offenders were middle aged - because it takes time and practice to get good at it, like anything else - and they couldn’t stomach the prospect of getting out as old men.

BeanBagLady the insurance company would be liable to pay once the moped is stolen I would have thought. Insurance should cover theft and damage.