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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that Labour's stance on moped ramming is stupid

718 replies

longfingernails · 28/11/2018 23:11

The Metropolitan Police have been knocking over moped muggers with their cars, and releasing the footage as a deterrent. It's a fantastic idea which has cut moped crime dramatically.

Predictably, the Shadow Home Secretary has said 'it shouldn't be legal for anyone'.

Why is Labour's instinct always to side with the scumbag criminals over the victims, the police and the decent people?

OP posts:
twocats335 · 29/11/2018 23:38

Absolutely right that the police are doing this. Time to get tough. Forget the bloody do-gooders with their 'human rights' - what about the rights of law-abiding citizens?!

cantfocus1 · 29/11/2018 23:42

I struggle with this, on the one hand I believe I have the right to batter someone who attempted to mug me & do agree something needs to be done. On the other hand I’m uncomfortable with the police having this power, & think the organisation as a whole has some problems with accountability. Also it may reduce crime in the interim but as a long term strategy? I think the criminals will just turn to different methods. Why aren’t criminals being prosecuted? Why aren’t jail sentences a deterrent? What rehabilitation is there? What can we do to stop people turning to crime? I think society needs to look at these issues, crime will only become more prevalent & violent & i’m not sure this is the right way.

safariboot · 29/11/2018 23:47

I advocated the police use ramming previously and I'm glad that at least one police force is now prepared to do so. For too long criminals have been able to commit robberies with impunity knowing that they can ride off on two wheels and police would do nothing because they might hurt the poor criminals. Finally this is changing.

Whether or not you've done anything else illegal, if you run from the cops and get hurt I say tough shit.

Oh, and I'm a staunch Labour voter.

wurlycurly · 29/11/2018 23:48

I’ve had my phone taken by a guy on a moped. He took my phone. It wasn’t a violent crime. I think it’s outrageous to then take action that could seriously injure or kill someone over a theft like this. And what if you get the wrong person? The met have form for killing and asking questions later.

Buswankeress · 30/11/2018 03:21

Reading some of the comments against this policy on this thread you could be forgiven for thinking that the police have just been given powers to floor the accelerator every time they see a moped and not stop until they feel like it! When they haven't have they? It's a tactic that's used when all others have failed.

Police say a combination of tactics — which also include using scrambler bikes, DNA sprays and stinger devices to deflate tyres — is reducing moped crime. Figures show 12,419 moped-related offences from January to October, compared with 19,455 in the same period last year, down 44 per cent (Evening Standard)

It's a range of tactics that are being used, and from what I understand from what I have read, making deliberate contact with a moped/bike to bring a chase to a swift end is the last resort, when all other efforts have failed.
To that end the mugger has a choice in all this, and should like everyone else, accept the concequences of the choice they make.

Choose to mug someone? Concequences are a chance of getting caught and prosecuted. Don't want those concequences? Don't mug someone.

Choose to use a moped to reduce the risk of getting caught and prosecuted?
Consequences are being asked to stop by the police, and if you do not, chased by a motorbike officer, who can go where you do, use of a stinger to deflate your tyres (would think this would probably result in parting company with the moped/bike too?) Use of DNA spray to place you at the scene, or having your (or someone else's you've stolen) moped/bike brought to a stop by a police car using contact if necessary.
Don't want to face those concequences? Then don't let it get that far!

The mugger has all the choice here, they know that if they continue to evade arrest then this will escalate the situation to a point where they may be injured by being forcibly brought to a stop. By continuing they are accepting that risk and therefore making an informed choice and are fully accountable for the choices they made to reach that point.

Why on earth should anyone who's made several choices (which are against the law) not face the concequences of their own actions?

And it's a collective decision made by the officers at the scene and the control room - this reduces the risk of adrenaline taking over because there's at least one control officer overseeing the whole operation and making a judgement call.

And with regards to a 'criminal' not being one until proven guilty in court - this tactic is about facilitating getting a suspect to court. That's what the police essentially do isn't it? They investigate crimes, identify a perpetrator(s) and arrest and detain them until they appear in court. Whether you like it or not, 'suspected criminals' are going to, on occasion, try and swerve this process to avoid the concequences. We shouldn't be removing powers from those who's job it is to enforce this process, because then we render the whole justice system useless, you could have as harsh a sentence available for a judge to hand out to a moped mugger you like, not much point if the police can't catch them in the first place is there?

GySgtHartman · 30/11/2018 06:49

Mike drop from Buswankeress

ThatsWotSheSaid · 30/11/2018 07:06

I’m on the fence about this one. On one hand we already except risk to the perpetrator when arrests take place. People running away can be jumped on wreastled to the ground and roughly restrained then shoved in a cell. This results in serious injury and death all the time. Highly trained police could, with relatively low risk, bump scooters so that the rider is low risk of serious injury and frankly the amount of violent serious crime being committed justifies this to me sometimes. However I think most people have the imagination to see were this could go and it almost certainly will. I don’t know what the answers are but I don’t have much sympathy for people who commit serious violent crimes and I don’t have enough trust in the police to get something like this right all the time.

Gaspodethetalkingdog · 30/11/2018 07:23

If you don’t want to be chased and hurt by the police don’t drive around throwing acid, mugginh, etc.

The little darlings need to get jobs like most other people, but robbing people is easier than working. Perhaps if the women who produce these nasty little individuals brought them up properly they would not be involved with all this.

cantfocus1 · 30/11/2018 07:38

Whether or not you've done anything else illegal, if you run from the cops and get hurt I say tough shit. Like Jean Charles da Silva e de Menezes?

cantfocus1 · 30/11/2018 07:39

Perhaps if the women who produce these nasty little individuals brought them up properly they would not be involved with all this. Don’t the fathers have some responsibility?

cantfocus1 · 30/11/2018 07:44

However I think most people have the imagination to see were this could go and it almost certainly will. I don’t know what the answers are but I don’t have much sympathy for people who commit serious violent crimes and I don’t have enough trust in the police to get something like this right all the time Agree

Oakenbeach · 30/11/2018 07:57

I don’t have enough trust in the police to get something like this right all the time

So the Police can only act if there’s no risk nor any chance of it ever going wrong? Basically that gives offenders the ability to do what the hell they please as any time they resist arrest, they’ll
be behaving in a way where there are risks involved in apprehending them.

Even if they’re simply running away from Police they might get run over as they dash across a road... Should we berate the police in that situation too for putting the offender at risk?

Oakenbeach · 30/11/2018 08:06

See this is the thing about human rights. They're for all. Even robbers and murderers and paedos. You don't "opt out" of them because you don't stop being human even when you act like a scrote.

Nobody, not even Diane Abbott, actually believes that criminals shouldn’t lose at least some of their human rights. I have a human right to freedom to go where I like, when I like (within UK borders at least)... If I murderered someone, I would forfeit that human right, and be incarcerated for a lengthy period.... and rightly so!

So no, ‘human rights’ is not a reasonable argument against police tactics.

mothertruck3r · 30/11/2018 08:14

If all these moped riders are innocent, presumably they can avoid getting hurt by just stopping when the police put their sirens on, like any innocent law-abiding motorist is expected to do. Why would anyone continue riding when requested to stop by the police?

Sethis · 30/11/2018 08:22

Like Jean Charles da Silva e de Menezes?

Because terrorism investigations and mopeds are the same thing. Police officers chasing mopeds don't have guns, for a start. It was also about 10 years ago now. Maybe get a new club to beat your public service with.

Nobody is claiming the police are perfect. However you can't tell a police force to only arrest criminals who it is 100% safe to stop. Crime is by nature dangerous, but I would rather the criminals were put in danger than their next innocent victim.

mothertruck3r · 30/11/2018 08:25

Police are already lacking in respect -this just serves to exacerbate this fact.

On the contrary, this greatly increases my respect for the police.

user1471426142 · 30/11/2018 08:32

I’m on the fence. It does seem quite violent and I was quite shocked when I saw some of the videos. However, if it is as a last resort and the moped driver is refusing to stop when requested then they are bringing on the consequences themselves in the same way that a criminal might crash a car in a chase. Unfortunately the cuts to police and other services have led to a situation where crime has escalated and more extreme powers seem to be needed. I can’t see that getting better any time soon.

cantfocus1 · 30/11/2018 08:34

So the Police can only act if there’s no risk nor any chance of it ever going wrong? No, mistakes will always happen but it’s the procedures after that concern me.

Because terrorism investigations and mopeds are the same thing. Police officers chasing mopeds don't have guns, for a start. It was also about 10 years ago now. Maybe get a new club to beat your public service with. Im sure the fact it’s old news is a comfort to his family, I used to use that station every day & on the day. I’m not comparing but my point is do I believe if someone died innocent or not would the same accountability or lack of occur? I support public servants, I am one, however they should be accountability where appropriate.

cantfocus1 · 30/11/2018 08:43

So what happens when we eradicate all theft by moped? Will those criminals turn away from crime or turn to another method? What then? I’m far from a woolly liberal & actually support the death penalty for certain crimes when there is irrefutable proof but that’s a whole other thread.

Buswankeress · 30/11/2018 08:50

@GySgtHartman

Please explain Mike drop
Probably being dense but I don't get it......

JoyofSticks · 30/11/2018 08:51

What happens when members of the public take it into their own hands and decide to knock people off their mopeds? This could be used as an excuse to crash into mopeds by arseholes. We all have human rights, innocent until proven guilty right? not that that is applied Knocking people off mopeds is NOT a good idea.

hibbledibble · 30/11/2018 08:55

I live in an area where moped muggars are rife. They ride on the pavement, with no regard for the safety of pedestrians. They also do not wear helmets, so clearly have little regard for their own safety (they do so the police won't follow them).

People are often injured when they are mugged. It has happened to people I know.

I call the police when I see them out, but in central London it is usually hours from a call to any kind of response (and that's usually just a phone call back 3 hours later saying are they still there.. I doubt it). They act with impunity.

Cutting police numbers has had a devastating effect.

Any action taken to deter moped mugging is positive in my opinion, for public safety.

I don't think enough is being done, by a long way.

KissingInTheRain · 30/11/2018 08:56

cantfocus

That’s an argument - and a very good one - for society making a priority of early intervention and of more effort in rehabilitation. I’m all for those things.

But they don’t remove the need to stop, arrest and prosecute criminals.

As for the terrible Menezes killing, that was the product of guns. Which is a good reason to find alternatives to arming the police whenever possible. Including, for example, the use of cars to knock over suspects who try to get away on scooters. Wrongful police shootings are a reason for this approach, not against it.

Justanotherlurker · 30/11/2018 09:04

What happens when members of the public take it into their own hands and decide to knock people off their mopeds?

HAHAHA, the lengths people are going to

brizzledrizzle · 30/11/2018 09:06

*The problem is the mopeds can get down paths, through bollards the cars can’t and they can obviously outrun police on foot.

How do they stop them?*

Taser? Gun?