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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that all GP's (Doctors) work part-time?

355 replies

popcornwizard · 26/11/2018 15:59

Based on my tiny personal knowledge of 4 GP's that are friends, and a couple of others that are friends of friends etc, I'm coming to the conclusion that they all work part-time hours. Is this real? Or is it just the ones that I know. I have no idea whether any of the GP's at 'my' practice work full-time or not, but at least 3 of them work only two days/week.

So AIBU to think that they're a bunch of part-timers? And what causes this? Stress or lucrative locum contracts?

OP posts:
howabout · 01/12/2018 08:26

Op it should be easy to work out if it is typical. I worked out my 3 appointments a year from a basic pricing model where each doctor has to earn twice £100k to pay their full time earnings and the related practice overhead. At £120 per patient this works out at 2000 patients per doctor and on standard surgery hours and appointments gives 3 per year. Just for fun I asked google and my guesstimates are in line with the stats.

I live in a largish town but near to Doctors row. It feels like we have loads per head but actually very quick to google all the surgeries and their Doctors. Most of them state who are FT, PT and salaried or partners. My area is bang on average for FTE and fewer PT than I expected, but again in line with National stats.

If you really want the answer anecdata is the least reliable source, especially drawn from self selecting, unverifiable randoms on a chat forum.

If you wanted a broader discussion about why PT is a thing and the implications you should have asked different, less loaded questions.

Original poster
popcornwizard · 01/12/2018 14:19

I really am surprised you haven't asked the three questions at the end of your OP of the people you know IRL. I was indeed wondering about their personal circumstances.

You shouldn't be, I've already explained that I know their answers, why would I ask if they are part time when I already know that they are?

And you're very nosy to want to know their circumstances. Two have lots of horses, one has small kids, one has cancer, none of that is relevant or influences what others do.

OP posts:
Pinkhairdontcare21 · 01/12/2018 14:26

m.soundcloud.com/national-elf-service/margaret-mccartney

First 2 mins of this interview are good at explaining "part time working" GPs

Xenia · 01/12/2018 14:52

I just looked ours up - 4 partners, 19 doctors in total including the partners (I think 2 of the 19 are training so perhaps do not count in the numbers) and some of the employed partner ones say they are part time or full time but most don't say either way so I can't work it out. 1 is white of the 12, although I think they are from abroad, not that the colour of them or where they are from , is relevant to anything but having only been once in 12 years I hadn't checked who worked there for a while.

bluefolder · 01/12/2018 15:05

@Xenia GPs are either employed or partners, you can't be both.

howabout · 01/12/2018 15:27

My consultant friend says there are also issues surrounding buying into partnerships, especially if you can't / won't make a FT commitment. Not sure how widespread this is? 4 partners with 14 employed Doctors (FT or PT) and a Doctor in training have a money making business model. Employed FT Doctors typically are paid around 2/3 of partners for same work.

Talkinpeece · 01/12/2018 15:28

Bluefolder
GPs are either employed or partners, you can't be both
They could be salaried partners - the surgery will most likely be an LLP and that allows employed partners
sort of second tier
(common in professional firms now)

bluefolder · 01/12/2018 17:25

LLPs are barred from holding a GP contract. There is no such thing as a salaried partner in GP, those practices that offer it generally don't understand the difference between partner and salaried or are trying to exploit the new Dr.

bluefolder · 01/12/2018 17:26

@howabout that isn't an issue. The main problem is no one wants to be a GP partner anymore as the risks are far greater than the rewards. A half decent GP who wants a partnership will be fighting the practices away!

howabout · 01/12/2018 18:38

I'm not sure it is as straightforward as that. I would think twice about buying into a business if it looks like there are issues with the exit strategy. If partnership is increasingly viewed as "not worth the risk" then it creates a feedback loop. Financing also starts to become more difficult / expensive if succession plans don't look sustainable. This is also an issue in my profession.

PsychedelicSheep · 01/12/2018 21:24

I work in GP surgeries and none of the GPs work full time now you come to mention it 🤔

I don't blame them, it's a bloody difficult job! If I could work part time I definitely would!

Tistheseason17 · 02/12/2018 11:33

LLPs are barred from holding a GP contract. There is no such thing as a salaried partner in GP, those practices that offer it generally don't understand the difference between partner and salaried or are trying to exploit the new Dr

Absolute tosh.
I employ 2 x salaried GPs and both declined partnership due to the personal financial risks associated with paying the redundancies for all the staff when the NHS goes down the pan!! They are not telephoned when GPs call in sick - we call the GP partners first. Our salaried GPs have less responsibility and that's how they like it.

Mind you... one of them has inquired about partnership and we are very excited they are considering it! Hardly the action of an exploited team member....

Tistheseason17 · 02/12/2018 11:34

Oh, and we do not have any FT GPs if you are going by days worked.

However, we do have GP partners that work 40+ hours over 3 days....

FT GPs is not the way to go - most are doing portfolio work for their own sanity.

Xenia · 02/12/2018 11:49

I just found on the website the surger I use has 5 full time, 14 time and 3 locums and I presume the 4 "partners" on their website are in law partners, not eg shareholders in a limited company which employes them.

Are doctors who are "partners" allowed as a GP to run a limited company which they own all the shares in that operates the practice or do they have to be sole traders or if they have a real businses partner then as a partnership?

Tistheseason17 · 02/12/2018 14:06

@Xenia
Most are in partnerships with individual liability - as am I.

Every time a funding stream is cut I have to consider whether to hand the NHS contract back as we won't have enough money to fund the care the patients need.

So far we have managed to grow our patient base and simplify processes but their is only so much improvement you can do with tuppence.

Your NHS is slowly being privatised and when it is too late people will be harking back to the "good ole times" when you could see a GP locally and they knew you.... It will be too late then.

Go on to the Save Our NHS Facebook page as it will give you a clear picture of what is happening.

Ploverlover · 02/12/2018 14:26

tistheseason, I think you've misunderstood what you've proclaimed as "tosh". GPs are either salaried, or partners. There are no "salaried partners". You're either an employee, or a liable partner. You've since said this, hence me thinking you misunderstood that the poster was making that point.

Didiplanthis · 02/12/2018 14:41

Actually I was a salaried partner for a while so It does happen. In my case it was on my probationary period (years ago when gps wanting partnerships were not like gold dust) so I had the responsibilities of partnership but a fixed salary.

howabout · 02/12/2018 14:48

Thanks for clarification Didi. Salaried partners existed in my profession long before LLPs were a thing. They were generally used as a way to gradually buy into the equity in the partnership. I wasn't sure if that would be different for Drs since the "assets" normally include the client base and "goodwill" in other professional services but for GPs the NHS contract would be the key determinant?

From reading on line it looks like tiered equity which increases over a probationary period was more the norm for GPs but even this is becoming less common?

Badbadbunny · 02/12/2018 14:50

when it is too late people will be harking back to the "good ole times" when you could see a GP locally and they knew you.... It will be too late then

For most people that state happened years ago. Yes, I can see a GP locally occasionally, but more often than not it's a 4-5 mile trip to a different branch in a different town. They certainly never "know me" as it's always someone different - there is absolutely no continuity of care at all, even for a chronic condition. The actual partners are conspicuous by their absence - I've never seen one. I only know who they are by them being named on their website.

Tistheseason17 · 02/12/2018 14:53

@Ploverlover

I was commenting "tosh" regarding partnerships exploiting GPs.
And yes, you can have a salaried partner as Didiplanthis states.
Some GPs do this before become a "full partner". But mostly they are one or the other. I certainly was not exploiting our salaried partner before he come a full partner - it was HIS choice - that is the Tosh comment! :)

Tistheseason17 · 02/12/2018 14:55

@Badbadbunny
I do think you are right - it is already happening in parts of the country.

Where I am there are 14 local practices within 5 miles and we do not want to merge - we all want to give continuity of care. But, I know that other areas have been forced into a different model due to the GP shortage.

I think it is dangerous, personally.

howabout · 02/12/2018 15:07

My GPs' practice is an interesting hybrid model. There are 3 separate practices sharing the same buildings and central facilities. They also host/provide(?) community health services on a joint basis. So I get continuity of care, given there are only 3 Drs in my actual practice plus access to larger practice services and they get to keep more individual autonomy.

LaBelleSauvage · 02/12/2018 15:48

During my GP training, all the practice GPs said they worked part time.

However, they worked 3.5 days per week. 12 hours per day. So that's 42 hours per week, longer than standard full time hours. They also all took 5 or ten minutes for a lunch break.

In all my time in medicine, I have never known a GP actually work 'part time'.

Full time for a GP is 60 hours plus.

LaBelleSauvage · 02/12/2018 15:52

P.S.
YABU

AHeartAPenny · 02/12/2018 15:58

Not a GP, but also a clinician. I have friends who think I work "part time" because I work 3 or 4 days a week. They "forget" that each of my workdays is 13hrs long, but I usually have to stay 30-60minutes extra to catch up on paperwork, and I often don't get a break (so nothing at all to eat in those 13/14hrs). Oh, and I'm only ever paid as if I had worked 12hrs, taken a 1hr lunch, and gone home on time. You likely have no idea what your GP friends' working hours actually are, OP.