Moral Dilemma - to sell this and pocket the cash?

[PersonaNonGarter]

I have a moral dilemma.

A Sponging Relative (‘SR’) has run up so much debt that he has finally been evicted from his property and is likely to be made bankrupt shortly. He is also a massive hoarder. Recently, my aunt went to visit SR and suggested he part with some toys rather than pack them before eviction. The toys were given to my DC.

The toys turn out to be worth a lot of money and I will sell them rather than have them take up space - DC aren’t going to play with them. Should I :

1. Pocket the cash and give it to my DC on some way like a holiday
2. Give it to the very skint SR
3. Give the cash to some of the people SR has sponged off.

He doesn’t sponge off me although he has tried. In law, I know they were a gift and are mine/DCs. But morally...?

ICE.

I don’t know why you think he does know she has the toys?.

He is also a massive hoarder. Recently, my aunt went to visit SR and suggested he part with some toys rather than pack them before eviction. The toys were given to my DC

And..

He didn’t give them to me directly. He hasn’t been to see me in a very long time and has no real interest in the DC. I think my aunt suggested it, or he might have done, because my aunt was coming to see me. She brought them to me

And...

If I tell him the value of the toys, he will expect me to transfer that, in cash, today

It seems clear to me.

ane

Thanks for all the replies. I’m afraid I have discarded the ones about me being a shitty person with a wrong moral compass grin

Of course you have.
You obviously wanted to sell it and pocket the cash from the off.

She still doesn't know SR knows she has the toys.

I'd sell the toys and put the money in my children's bank account.

You’re not asking what to do. You have made your decision and you’re seeking validation.

In as much as he has thought about it, SR knows I have the toys and other items, as my aunt was en route to me when they were collected.

I have a less cluttered house than the rest of the family - so they assume I can take their stuff. Hoarders are deluded about the value of their stuff - but here the stopped clock was right twice a day.

But you don't know for sure, do you?

SouthEastDweller Sorry. Cross posted with you. MN is causing my iPad a lot of problems at the moment, grrrr.

I don’t have any inclination to try to go back through the posts again. If the op said that, it really doesn’t tally with the posts I quoted, so I give up!

Purple. £39,000 is a LOT of rent to be owed and would finish many of us off, but you’d have to have let it go on and on being unpaid to get to that amount. It doesn’t strike me that that kind of person would bother to take the time involved to maximise the profit from a box of toys.

It would have saved time all round if you had just said in your first post that you’re looking for people to validate your thinking.

In as much as he has thought about it, SR knows I have the toys and other items, as my aunt was en route to me when they were collected

So he may not know you have the toys at all. Someone else has given you his property. Your first port of call is to definitely find out whether he knows you have them.

I don’t need people to validate my thinking, I was looking for a discussion. Which I guess I am getting!

The dilemma is a real one. As anyone who has anything to do with hoarders knows - the decision is likely to get put off and the box ‘stored’ and so the hoarding gets passed around.

This really isn't a dilemma to anyone with a decent moral compass.

OP, if these items are so valuable, would your children not want to keep them for a later date, for their own use or children at some point perhaps?

It's not tat that you're talking about so what is the issue? It's one box.

What toys are worth that much!

We need pics, so we can all see if we are sitting on loads of cash!

Absolutely do 1) Sell, pocket the cash and buy your children nice things with the money.

If you do 2) you are basically enabling him and feeding/rewarding his addiction plus he is unlikely to use the money sensibly. Remember the old saying "no good deed goes unpunished...".

I get it completely OP. Rules that apply in normal situations do not necessarily apply in abnormal ones.

I suspect you want at all costs to 1. Avoid your house being eyed up as the next storage facility ( thank goodness you are 300 miles away) in the guise of protecting the family heirlooms and 2. Avoid further entrenchment by indicating the rest of the stuff may be similarly valuable - it almost certainly isn't 3. Avoid any messy family recriminations.

Hoarding is such an intractable issue that those around it can often have an understandably visceral reaction the other way. Why should you invest further time money and space in what is essentially someone else's problem? You have already tried to help. The desire to get rid of the stuff ( appropriately as it is of some value) is entirely reasonable in the circumstances.

Having said all that, I would probably pursue a middle course and keep it for now, see how things pan out and then seek advice from the trustee. And of course accept nothing more from the hoard!

I would sell them and put the money into an isa or interest bearing account. This could sit there until your kids need their first car or if someone in the family falls upon hard times themselves because they have given money to the scrounger. That way, the money is still there and can still be used ethically but you have got rid of space consuming stuff.

IF they get sent back to SR they will go into the stuff in storage which will be sold as a ‘lot’ and they won’t get any more for it with the toys.

Surely now though the OP could inform the Aunt and SR that the toys have a considerable value, and this would then be taken into account should things need to be sold off to pay creditors?

If CR bought them with his own money in the first place and they have since increased in value then I would say option 2 without doubt but now I’m wondering if these are more inherited toys- were they bought for CR when he was a child? Did Aunt buy them? Do they go even further back in the family than that? In which case could it be that they weren’t really given as a gift, you are being thought of as a custodian? If so, while legally they are no doubt yours to sell, morally it’s a bit vaguer, they are ‘family’ toys. You know it will upset your aunt to sell them (the hoarding doesn’t come into it, ethics wise).

I suggest telling your aunt that they are worth money and what should you do? If she says give them back, give them back. If she wants them sold on CR’s behalf then she can do that herself. If she says to keep them, then put them away for your children as heiloooms/investment items. Presumably they will increase in value as time goes by? Once your children are old enough, say 18, give them the toys to do with as they wish, including to sell. Enough time will have gone by and as you will now be doing the ‘passing on’ you can specify to them that it’s fine if they want to sell them.

And it really doesn't seem like concern about the hoarder that is the OP's primary concern at all.
The first 7 pages are moaning about the effort it will be to sell them in order to justify keeping the money.

Then someone else mentioned encouraging a hoarder's tendencies....

Do what you want OP, but don't try and kid us you're thinking of the greater good.

Okay. If SR is going into bankruptcy, then transactions and gifts in the previous 5 years (for related parties) should be looked at, and if there is value which should have been realised for the creditors, that transaction can be reversed, which means OP may be asked to produce the toys or the amount they were sold for. £2000 may well be worth pursuing, since the Official Receiver has to cover certain costs before any creditor is paid (court costs, etc).

OP should NOT deal with any creditors themselves.

OP should, if the bankruptcy is confirmed by the Official Receiver (who can and should be contacted) inform the Official Receiver that they have these toys, and invite the Official Receiver to make arrangements for the toys to be collected from OP, or confirm that they will NOT be pursuing those assets, in writing. Once the Official Receiver has pronounced, the OP can do whatever is agreed.

Personally, I would get in touch with the Official Receiver.

I think you're being swayed by SR's character. It sounds like he's been grossly selfish and has made some stupid decisions, but I don't think that's a justification to treat him badly. Had he known the toys were valuable he wouldn't have gifted them - and it does sound like he wasn't really involved in the decision to gift them at all.

He may well spend the proceeds unwisely, but he is allowed to do this. I'd personally share with the aunt that they are worth money and make the decision with her.

I'm sorry, but it feels pretty backhanded to sell them and use the cash. I don't think one person's bad behaviour justifies more.

That's a very interesting post hidingmystatus Is this part of your job by any chance?

Must also say I don't see a world of difference between him staying in a nicer hotel briefly and your family going on holiday.

It sounds like he's been grossly selfish and has made some stupid decisions, but I don't think that's a justification to treat him badly.

He's treated a lot of other people badly - from relatives to his landlord!

OP - do as "hidingmystatus* suggests, that way you are in the clear either way, and if you are able to keep the toys (with confirmation from the OR, then as they have been given to your children you can sell ir dispose of them how you like.

There is always the possibility that your useless relative KNOWS the value of these items and is hoping that he can use you as a hiding place for an asset, and will then demand the value of them in a few months time when the heat has died down.

I'd honestly be upfront with the OR and then you won't get a surprise demand from anyone.