To say I understand why some people don’t pay child maintenance? X

[princessmum1]

Just that really. It seems crazy that child maintenance is not means tested beyond anything other than income. It doesn’t matter if your mortgage/rent or your ex partners is £2000 a month or £300 a month you’ll b expected to pay the same amount. Seems odd when you compare it to benefits that are very much means tested based on everything.

Yes fair enough @BitchQueen90 I'm just so fed up on MN of people thinking it's always the NRP BU and they can't even entertain the idea it is sometimes the other way around. It seems no matter what NRPs/ SMs do they are always in the wrong on MN and no matter what the RPs do they are always in the right. I'm fed up of it.

I suspect the problem is that an awful lot of resident parents do have an ex who does not pay and does not see the children (like mine) so not surprisingly it seems that time and again that is represented. it just reflects many women's experience (not all of course and those with nice amicable arrangements probably don't need to post as all is well). Plenty of men pay and share the care of children perfectly well but those couples are happy even after divorce and don't need to post about it.

I totally get the @Xenia and I've got zero problem with RP posting about how difficult their ex is. But I also dislike how often SM's post about their DP's difficult ex only to be shot down and told they must have it all wrong / posts would love to here the ex's side of things because everything the SM or their DP are doing is unreasonable and obviously their DP's ex is the totally sane reasonable one. It's very rare that when an RP posts about their unreasonable ex people say ahh you're obviously wrong, would love to read your ex's side of things.

posters would love to hear

You know what I’d prefer to see have done? The NRP pay 50% of the children’s actual living costs. Child maintenance rates are often so low it’s unbelievable, and that’s for those who pay, which I think happens a lot.

Poesy, I agree with everything you have written. The system is not working well and there needs to be a fresh look at the way children are cared for when parents split. NRP are not well treated and that part explains the reason for disaffected parents. Resident parents asking for more money without compromising on other areas of responsible parents is clearly not satisfactory.
I think this is increasingly recognised and there needs to be a holistic approach with the needs of everyone taken into account, with a focus on the well being of all children.

I totally agree with you @mrsmuddlepies. I don't think there will ever be a system that is fair for all though. I think divorce / separation inevitably leads to hardship on one or both sides as the couple is now having to fund two homes but with the same amount of income.

I agree with you @Letsmoveondude but again can that ever truly be fair for all? If you have somebody earning 200 k a year and the other parent earning 20 k a year, is it really fair for the lower earner to still have to fund 50% of the costs even though if you were still together you wouldn't be. I agree it's a good starting point though.

Unfortunately muddle and poesy all the shit NRPs ruin it for the few good ones. Maybe the good ones could campaign on our side to improve it for everyone.

You know what I’d prefer to see have done? The NRP pay 50% of the children’s actual living costs. Child maintenance rates are often so low it’s unbelievable, and that’s for those who pay, which I think happens a lot

I don’t see how that would work though. A single parent with a child, basic needs are two bed flat, heating, lighting, food, clothes etc.

It the rp is living in the 3 bed family home following the split is the nrp expected to pay 50% of renting, heating and lighting etc the 3 bed? Or do you calculate on 50% of a two bed? What if the rp decides food shopping will only be done at waitrose, when they’ve previously shopped at lidl?
If the rp has a new partner do you take account they will now be using heat, light and food and adjust accordingly?

You would probably need some sort of algorithm to calculate absolute basic costs per child. But still every family is different. My mum is a single parent and genuinely struggled on 30k a year- she has the heating on constantly, always replaces stuff as soon as it gets a bit worn, needs workmen to fix stuff, redecorate etc.

I am living relatively easily on 19k because i do my own diy, only heat one or two rooms, shop frugally, refularly switch suppliers etc. It is costing me far less to bring up my kids because my idea of “need” is different, and i am better at budgeting.

I really can’t see a way to calculate actual living costs. Surely you’d just get constant arguments over whether the child needs ballet lessons, or the nrp can’t afford x so the rp should downsize so they can afford 50%...

I honestly don’t think there is a “fair” way to split costs.

And i have to say, reading this thread it does seem like most women’s expectation of the nrp is financial. As long as they pay up their emotional involvement is irrelevant.

I would absolutely hate to have to only see my kids at weekends and have to pay for the privilege does seem like salt in wounds. I am not saying nrp shouldn’t bear financial responsibility but i have heard women say when a child wants to live with dad that they aren’t paying for him to take her kids away....

And i have to say, reading this thread it does seem like most women’s expectation of the nrp is financial. As long as they pay up their emotional involvement is irrelevant

I think that's incredibly unfair. Whilst I absolutely don't see maintenance as a pay-per-view (which this comment I would absolutely hate to have to only see my kids at weekends and have to pay for the privilege suggests you do...?) I would be bloody disappointed in my ex if he wasn't willing to contribute financially towards the child we both decided to have. It would completely change my view of him as a person and as a result our relationship.

@PoesyCherish everything you have said I just want to applaud. I feel exactly the same.

That's all. Everything else has been hashed out.

My expectations were not financial, indeed I paid my husband on our divorce (and more than 50% of our assets). I htink a few nights a year seeing them even if not going their washing is not unreasonable or even half the year but there is no legal right to force a man to see or have their children, yet the man has the right even if hard to enforce it sometimes, to see the children. In other words he gets the right but the children and their resident parent has no right to force him to do his practical physical bit.

The biggest issue on contact is as King Solomon found in the bible you can't chop children in two when two people love and want them. Yo could try the Bob Geldof solutino of parents having to move in and out of their bed sit into the children's home when they have the children because why should the children be disrupted rather than the huge responsible adults who have chosen to mess up the children's lives or else you shift the children from pillar to post or else only one parent has them i suppose. No easy answers.

Poesy - just because that's your experience doesn't make it the majority experience. I did say personally - because that's been my experience not just with my ex but seeing what friends in real life have experienced and as I said before I've seen it from nrps side too and I've seen them frequently not out of malice but just thoughtlessness/Disney parenting syndrome not maintain a child's routine leading to disruption and tired children at school and it's primarily the child that suffers.

And I agree with pps the reason why nrps get a bad press on mn is because the majority of the time they don't pay maintenance, don't see their kids or if they do, make a shit job of parenting. If you want to see nrps get less of a bad press maybe any you know in real life who are being shit parents you can set straight, because until it becomes shameful to not pay maintenance, to not see your kids, to not parent sensibly when you do it's unlikely to change.

And on the Christmases/birthdays/holidays I agreed with you! My ex was offered at least part of Christmas, and some birthdays etc he wasn't interested.

Re how to calculate. I think basing it on averages would be fair. As a starting point then extras depending on income/means tested.

Re RP's seem more interested in money - maintenance comes up as a subject more and this thread is about maintenance but certainly I am just as if not more disappointed/angry/sad that my ex has effectively abandoned our dd. I see on a regular basis how it affects her, now that she's starting on the relationship side of things I see that she is wanting to be loved but she doesn't trust and ends up doing daft things I think subconsciously to push them away/test them or she sometimes goes for players and it's a self fulfilling prophecy that 'men are all cheating bastards' even though she does have male role models in her life (my bro, cousins, uncles, her friends dads, my friends and husbands of friends) who are good faithful men and good dads...

But your dad is supposedly your template for your future partner consciously or subconsciously and certainly your first relationship with a man so of course it has an effect.

That was the first thing that really upset me following our split was that as soon as he moved out he obviously lost interest. When we still lived near each other I was happy for him to see her whenever he liked, she wasn't at school yet, I went back to work and she was in childcare, but that was only when he was working too but she was lucky if she saw him one day a week at that point and he was doing things like leaving her stuck in the buggy all day while he did what he wanted (pub, footie matches - nothing toddler friendly!), not changing nappies often enough so she was getting rashes, not feeding her in time and she'd get distressed. Then later I made the decision to go "home" to near my parents/family as I was struggling and had no support network and it was affecting dd. So that I had more support and there was more family around us both. As he was army that meant yes it was a far move and he kicked off - but being army he could be moved any number of places at any time anyway! And right enough he was moved 4 months later anyway, and actually where he was moved to the transport links from my home to where he now was, were better than they are from where we were when we split to where he moved to so if I'd stayed as he wanted it actually would have made things much harder! Also the transport links from my home to where we were when we split were good too.

I bent over backwards to ensure dd could see as much of her dad as possible for years. Not only making all the arrangements (inc chasing him to book annual leave!) I did most of the travelling and so paid most of the costs too - and the distance meant that often this cost more than that months maintenance (if I got it) too, I was cutting down on essentials inc food for me to facilitate this. And the visits didn't go well (see earlier post on this!) and dd often didn't want to go at the last min when she remembered how he was, it was incredibly upsetting leaving her, I find travel extremely stressful for a variety of reasons inc dx MH issues but I bloody did it - and it was NOT appreciated by him at all!!

Dd later discovered how much I was putting myself out to do all this (I didn't tell her, ex made some comments that dropped himself in it not realising she could hear and on the back of that she asked a relative and sneaked a look at bank statements - she did get told off for that, but she couldn't then not know) at that point we had a discussion and it was all very difficult and she said she wanted me to stop doing more than I was responsible for, let him sink or swim by his own actions and the result has been he hasn't seen her for years, he stopped even phoning her (I used to prompt him to phone/message her too). When she had a row with him explaining how hurt she felt that he couldn't even be arsed to phone her once in a while he acted so grown up...and blocked her! Then sent me a huge ranty text calling me vile names and saying I'd "turned her against him" no - you did that all by yourself you Dick!

And it's me dealing with how she feels about all this.

She genuinely feels her dad doesn't even like her let alone love her - that's a HUGE rejection for a barely teen child to deal with! And I feel I'm not dealing with it as well as I maybe could, despite people telling me I am. Even writing this is making me cry. I tell her how amazing she is all the time, how much I love her (even when she drives me nuts she's not perfect), but her self esteem is so low wrt men/relationships and she's been hurt by shitty boyfriends cheating on her, blowing hot n cold on her etc and it's heartbreaking!

And wrt the lack of maintenance - it's in my experience rarely a greed thing - it's an injustice thing! It's also because it DOES cause hardship it DOES mean that there were things I'd have loved to do with/get my dd that I simply couldn't afford - to be clear she never went without essentials and I've had great support from others BUT that does NOT excuse him not supporting her, does NOT excuse her having a lesser life as a child as a result.

When we first split I was a sahm (which is what he wanted, I'd wanted to go back to work - it was only with hindsight I saw just how much pressure he put on me to stay home because it suited him - he put the same pressure on wife 2 but by child 2 her family were starting to see what he was like and advising her to ensure her independence just in case and go back to work), then when we split within days, even though he knew I had no other income, he emptied the joint account. I had a frantic and bloody embarrassing few days of opening a new bank account and getting that bank to speed up my access to it so that friends and relatives could send me money just so I could get nappies and food for dd! I applied for the benefits I was eligible for and started job hunting (not easy when you have a toddler in tow and are relying on the few friends you have in the area who also work to mind her during interviews), was lucky enough to get a job within a few weeks and so frantically had to organise a nursery place for dd, but I then had to deal with the benefits side of things again to keep myself right with then and that resulted in a huge cock up with tax credits that messed up other things... It was hellish! One of the things I did was of course (especially after his emptying the bank account! So I knew how he was thinking) contact csa.

At this time maintenance was still counted as income for benefits calculations, the job i managed to get didn't pay enough to live on and I needed other help to support us, so when my ex eventually made ONE payment that massively reduced my benefits, fair enough you may think - except as far as benefits were concerned he was now paying regularly, but as he wasn't what basically happened was I was only getting the benefits I'd have if he were paying so I wasn't just making my contribution I was effectively making his too!

Thankfully the laws have since changed as this was an issue for many single parent families and it was putting them into poverty and debt.

That was definitely my lowest point. Working full time, barely seeing dd, skint, not eating and getting dogs abuse from him at every handover! I'll never get that time with dd back and I was so stressed I wasn't the best mum I could be and I hate that.

So please don't make out RP's are "money grabbing child snatchers" because it's bollocks!

Yo could try the Bob Geldof solutino of parents having to move in and out of their bed sit into the children's home when they have the children because why should the children be disrupted rather than the huge responsible adults who have chosen to mess up the children's lives

I actually think this is fairly sensible. It would solve financial issues of not needing two family homes, give the children security and stability.

One issue a friend of mine had was that the mum was awarded a hefty share of the family home when they split, only had to pay a token amount to buy him out because they wouldn't force a sale of the childrens home. Then when the kids were in a situation as 11/12 year olds where they had to come live with him, he was in a bedsit with no means of moving to a house. If the house stayed as the kids residence rather than having to be solely owned by one parent, it would make this situation easier. Would solve will issues if the house went in the kids names too.

The issue then is new partners I suppose. Not fair on anyone to have a one, possibly two step parents moving in or out as well. But then should the parents sacrifice some of their personal lives for the kids happiness- personally i think they should.

Micha so my ex moved straight in with OW over an hour away. How would us sharing the family home work? Would he bring the OW?

Should i avoid a relationship until the kids leave home?

I despair at such double standards. Ex is a great dad according to his family as he pays the minimum he is made to pay. Thats right MADE to pay.

I go on a date and im neglecting the kids.

Well exactly chuckle.

There isn’t a solution. An ex friend of mine kicked her dh out and moved the OM in the same day.

But people like that aren’t thinking of the kids are they. Many of these solutions depend on amicable splits and that rarely happens.

Micah I agree with you on that point. I've chosen to have only casual relationships - ones where DS will never meet them. A stepfamily situation would be more hassle than it's worth.

My ex does have a girlfriend but as he is the NRP and DS only spends 2 or 3 nights a month there it doesn't really have much affect on him. The girlfriend has no kids and no plans to have any either so there are no other DC to change the dynamic. As DS's main home is with me I want to keep it as stress free for him as possible.

@Xenia, I thought that the children had a right to see their NRP, not that the NRP had a right to see the children? Obviously, if NRP can't be bothered or whatever reason they have for choosing not to see the children there's not much can be done whichever way round the rights fall, but Ihad always thought that was a fairly important distinction.

I've probably misunderstood your post, anyway...

I might be wrong but I thought eg a father could apply to the court for contact and the court if the parents cannot agree themselves will fix the times. I don't think my children would have a right to apply to the court and require their father to have them stay say 50% of the year or one night a year. I think a resident parent can also applyt o the court for a child contact order but if that says father once a week and he never shows up once I don't think there is any remedy and I suppose he could apply to vary that to once every 5 yeas as he has moved to the Australian outback or just can't be bothered.

Xenia you’re right. A NRP can apply for a contact order, a RP can not apply to make the NRP have contact time with the children and the children can’t do anything about it either.

It’s packaged as being the children’s right to having contact with both parents but is dependant on the NRP wanting to have contact with the children.

It seems no matter what NRPs/ SMs do they are always in the wrong on MN and no matter what the RPs do they are always in the right. I'm fed up of it

You’ve missed all those posts about single mums on benefits, popping out sprigs by the dozen, drinking vodka, wearing designer clothes and refusing to work, then? Or the my step child has bad teeth and head lice but it’s the mother’s responsibility to deal with it posts? Or the she wants to send the children to the nearest school but we think it would be better if they went to the one 30 miles away, not on a bus route so that we can see them more because she went out last week and is clearly neglecting them posts?

50% of fathers do not pay maintenance

there are many parents who pay £5 per week for 2-3 children

Mrs muddlepies and posey- what part more would you like the RP compromise on to afford their children.

My Dcs do not need just monies, they need love care and attention which all too often gets missed by the NRP - as the NRP moves on with their new family and new life. All too often the old DCs are thrown away with the rubbish of the NRPs life.

there are many parents who pay £5 per week for 2-3 children

Mrs muddlepies and posey- what part more would you like the RP compromise on to afford their children.

I think those NRP's only paying £5 a week are a joke! I think both parents should contribute and therefore compromise to afford their DC. I think realistically speaking when you have 2 parents who truly care for their DC, both of them should sacrifice a lot for their DC. Whether that's holidays or a nicer house or a whole lot more obviously depends a lot on the couple's circumstances but nevertheless when you choose to make a DC you choose to give up a lot of your income for them.

My Dcs do not need just monies, they need love care and attention which all too often gets missed by the NRP

I totally agree with you. DC need all of those things.

when you choose to make a DC you choose to give up a lot of your income for them.

I should clarify - what I mean by that is you (in the plural sense) should choose to give up a lot of your income.

@poesy I think the biggest problem is that a lot of the people who don’t pay CS (not all but a lot) didn’t ‘choose’ to have a child.

Society has enabled a generation of young people for whom responsibility is a ‘concept’ they’ll deal with when they’re ready to be an adult! But they smush their private parts with a suitable partner and suddenly they’re supposed to be a responsible, reliable, mature adult? 😂

They just hold their hands up and say ‘it’s not my fault’ and they genuinely believe it!!!
Spoilt, entitled, selfish, brought up to understand that the world is at our feet and we can do/go/be anything/anywhere.

Then suddenly there’s a child involved and what, we’re supposed to just put them first??? 😮 what about us? How are we supposed to travel Thailand, go to Tuesday night parties and group holidays, run ourselves into 50K of CC debt and become a reality TV star with a toddler in tow?

(I’m 26- it’s a VERY real problem I see all the time!)

Of those I know who already have children;
80% of the guys did not intend to make a baby and didn’t want to continue the pregnancy.
80% of the girls wanted the baby to keep hold of the dad- who promptly left them and they now blame for everything!