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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say I understand why some people don’t pay child maintenance? X

284 replies

princessmum1 · 21/11/2018 21:49

Just that really. It seems crazy that child maintenance is not means tested beyond anything other than income. It doesn’t matter if your mortgage/rent or your ex partners is £2000 a month or £300 a month you’ll b expected to pay the same amount. Seems odd when you compare it to benefits that are very much means tested based on everything.

OP posts:
BitchQueen90 · 25/11/2018 14:08

mrsmuddlepies your posts are all about what the men want. Again, it's about what's best for the children, not the men, and I'm not at all convinced that 50/50 care is often in the best interests of the child. The RP should be the parent that does most of the day to day childcare which is the female in most cases.

thighofrelief · 25/11/2018 14:17

Possibly the RP who refuses to pay and goes to lengths not to doesn't give a fuck about the child and feels zero connection. Or possibly hates the RP so much they can't bear the thought of one penny going in RPs mouth. There is a real life child but imagine a ONS costing you for 18 years and there is no prospect of a relationship with the child.

thighofrelief · 25/11/2018 14:18

^ i meant nrp in first sentence.

joebloggsandco · 25/11/2018 14:21

Thighofrelief you make a good point about the ONS situation. Makes it trickier. But what about when the nrp actively decided to have the child? Then lost all apparent interest (and decided to use his fists on the child's mother, but that's another story...). I guess there is no way of proving it. But as they say, every time you have sex there is a possibility (even if it's miniscule) of resulting in a pregnancy...

thighofrelief · 25/11/2018 14:29

Tbf i couldn't bear to be an NRP or even the gatekeeper parent. It's easier to beggar yourself for a kid you adore who you see every day.

thighofrelief · 25/11/2018 14:39

I meant to say something to the gay poster earlier Juaneeze possibly? Sorry can't find your comment now. I wondered whether it works better going into having a child with someone with your eyes wide open deciding before being pg that you are two separate people yet still parents. Is your DC dad a "token" figure or a 50/50?

thighofrelief · 25/11/2018 14:52

Joe i don't know, I'm just thinking through the psychology of not giving a shit. Could it be out of sight out of mind? I once said to one of our NRPs don't you care that he needs a coat? He said - no, i know you'll sort it. And that's the crux isn't it? I can't not buy my kid a coat - I will look bad, the kid will complain, the school will phone me

joebloggsandco · 25/11/2018 15:01

Well basically yeah, that's exactly it thigh, nrp have a choice I guess at the end of the day, how much they pay, how much they see the children, etc. The nrp doesn't. And unfortunately if anyone is anywhere near as unlucky as me to have an ex like mine, we are the ones who are screwed. I don't have a choice about whether or not to feed and clothe my child, to provide for her. I never wanted to go back to work full time, but it boils down to not having a choice, if I drop a day at childcare, my earnings don't cover it for the other days that I would need it. I don't have a choice. He does. And clearly subscribes to the psychology of not giving a shit, as you so eloquently put it! Grin

thighofrelief · 25/11/2018 15:07

Joe can you go on benefits while she's so little and go back to work when the state subsidised child care kicks in? You'll put back in the pot when she's a bit older.

thighofrelief · 25/11/2018 15:12

I really pushed myself to work ft when my eldest was tiny and we were on our own. I wish i hadn't bothered, we were no better off financially and i was so stressed.

PoesyCherish · 25/11/2018 15:12

Haven't rtft but I do get your point OP. If you were still together you would take into account your mortgage etc and then spend accordingly on your DC. But with separated couples you're just expected to sacrifice everything even though you wouldn't if you were still together. That doesn't explain why you think people shouldn't pay any maintenance at all though.

Lots of people I know who are still together spend thousands on their mortgage every month and then can't afford to take their DC on holiday or spend a fortune at Christmas or daytrips etc. They could move to a cheaper property but they choose not to. You could apply the same to them - they should move to provide for their DC but you wouldn't dare suggest it to somebody would you.

fuzzywuzzy · 25/11/2018 15:18

That’s not how CM is worked out tho, it’s based on the minimum and doesn’t tend to cover fifty percent of the basics. Never mind luxury holidays and a champagne and caviar lifestyle.

JacquesHammer · 25/11/2018 15:20

Lots of people I know who are still together spend thousands on their mortgage every month and then can't afford to take their DC on holiday or spend a fortune at Christmas or daytrips etc. They could move to a cheaper property but they choose not to

That’s not quite the same thing though is it? When a couple is together they’re making decisions for the family. With a divorce, the RP is at the mercy of the NRP’s decisions which are out of their control.

MeVoila · 25/11/2018 15:26

Just because the non- resident parent's outgoings are high, it doesn't make it cheaper to bring up the child!
If your mortgage is £2k and you're struggling to pay for your child, you should live somewhere cheaper

PoesyCherish · 25/11/2018 15:34

With a divorce, the RP is at the mercy of the NRP’s decisions which are out of their control.

That works both ways though doesn't it. I would say actually the NRP is more at the mercy of the RP. Let's be fair RP's hold all the cards on big decisions, contact etc and there's naff all an NRP can do about it.

JacquesHammer · 25/11/2018 15:38

Let's be fair RP's hold all the cards on big decisions, contact etc and there's naff all an NRP can do about it

Really? The biggest decision of all should be materially supporting your child. There are countless ways NRPs can opt out of being responsible.

I should say I have no axe to grind whatsoever. My ex is a fabulous chap who is not only a wonderful father but pays maintenance then half of all expenses on top at his choice.

But I have friends who aren’t as lucky.

fuzzywuzzy · 25/11/2018 15:49

I’d say it was the other way around.

RP’s are held hostage to the whims of the NRP, especially with regards contact, I used to hve to coax my dc to contact and some months we’d turn up (having gone their by three buses and getting up early morning), and he wouldn’t bother turning up at all, he even went on holiday without letting the contact centre know and we had to still turn up for contact just in case as we weren’t aware he would not be turning up for contact.

He’d drag me to court at the drop of a hat for anything and everything and it cost him nothing as he self repped.

He expected a say in every aspect of the dc’s lives without actually accepting any responsibility or care for them.

Nrp’s have a lovely time of it, dipping in and out of parenting and exiting control over their ex’s.

he also rather enjoys taking credit for my children’s achievements. Which is a laugh as they’ve flourished and succeeded inspire of him not because of him.

Thank god after years of abuse we got a judge specialising in DV who stopped direct contact.

thighofrelief · 25/11/2018 18:02

Occasionally when my kids drive me mad i fantasise about having fucked off and being the NRP. In reality i don't think I could have lived. I'm not sure how i would have coped even 50/50. I know it's not about me. BUT i am prepared to accept less money for more control. With a fabulous and involved NRP who is adding massive value to the child, i guess it would be easier.

PoesyCherish · 25/11/2018 18:15

Maybe we just have bad experiences with the Ex then. She wouldn't allow overnights for years, still won't allow overnights on a school night (inc Sundays), won't allow Christmas contact or birthday contact, refused to even have a discussion about primary schools (despite there being several within walking / 5 min driving distance of her house), won't allow holidays, changes weekends at the drop of a hat and never a discussion, agrees things in mediation and then immediately goes back on it or says she didn't agree etc - you get the picture. And before anyone says it, DP always has and always will pay above the minimum maintenance, pays extra for school uniform, trips etc.

thighofrelief · 25/11/2018 21:05

Poesy it depends how close you live and how good a Dad is and the age of the child. Overnights fine, school nights no. It depends whether the Dad (and kid) will Disney on a school night or be sensible. I suppose we will need to look to more advanced countries to see how they are handling genuine 50/50 with equal careers, no Disney, no gatekeeper. That necessitates a stop to one SAHP exclusively. I believe that the Scandi countries split "maternity" leave for this reason.

Graphista · 25/11/2018 22:13

Mrsmuddlepies - yes the system is crap BUT we shouldn't NEED a bloody system! What happened to taking some fucking responsibility for the child you're half responsible for creating? What happened that now men are PROUD of abandoning your kids and not supporting them instead of being a decent father and being proud of that?! It's fucked up!

I actually love Chris rocks take on this (if not easily offended it's on YouTube) - that it bugs him when certain types make out that doing what you're supposed to do somehow makes you a fucking hero!

Short summary of the message of the routine mentioned:

they bang on 'I pay for my kids' yes you're bloody supposed to! What you want a bloody medal?!

As for 50/50 I think you'll find the types that try and dodge maintenance are ALSO the ones completely flaky over contact too! Whatever bullshit they feed the next potential mug.

JoeBloggs - yes the "it's only fair to give him a chance to pay" bollocks pissed me off too! My ex (I suspect with help from arrse a sort of army version of mn) worked out how to play it so he never paid regularly or always in full BUT it never got to the stage of DOE as just as csa was reaching that point he'd pay something. When it became cms o must admit I took the opportunity to request to speak to a manager, I told him how ex had been playing it and asked him to review the whole history, which he did. Based on THAT plus my saying ex was claiming he was unemployed but I'd seen on FB he'd just bought a house and new (brand new 4wd) car and made comments suggesting he was working, long story short, after various investigations (which didn't take that long!) they came down on him like a ton of bricks! So for the last 8 months of me using them (after 14 years approx at this point of him dodging) I did get regular in full payments - because it was done as a DOE!

It would have been longer but due to issues with school dd left early and got a job so I could no longer claim as effectively she was seen as an adult even though she wasn't 18. (I think that's wrong too).

"When theyhowever are taking their third holiday abroad and discussing buying a top of the range camper van it does grate." Oh I hear you! My ex has a very nice detached 4 bed house with double garage in the south east, brand new car every year, new phone every year, designer clothes for him and his 5 subsequent children he's had with ow/wife 2, those children go without nothing - inc I recently learned private education, several holidays a year including Florida or Caribbean most years...

Meanwhile dd and I have been reliant on benefits including when I was working full time (unfortunately unable to work right now due to ill health), we're currently in HA flat, she's had 2 holidays her whole life and one of those was thanks to a tax rebate! I've had to juggle like a genius to afford the footwear she needs due to her disability, at points I've gone without food so she eats, I've only had heating on when she's home to save money, and honestly my current health issues are at least partly due to all that stress. And that's not the worst either - I can't even say the worst things he's done as it would immediately identify me to anyone that knows us!

My ex also refused to let my dd contact me when she's down there - when she got to an age where she had a mobile phone he took it off her! Wouldn't accept her diagnosed disability and pushed her to do things that caused her pain and flare ups, only gave her the same amount of food to eat as their eldest - who's 3 years younger! Not so much a problem once they're teens maybe but a 6 year old eats more than a 3 year old! Again due to her disability she has a high metabolism and is very slim and needs the calories, she always came back from theirs having lost weight she could ill afford to, she often came back sick too with some bug or other - not really surprising when she was hungry, over exercised and unnecessarily stressed! Yet HE called SS on me twice! (Both times they checked in and realised it was an arsehole ex making a malicious complaint).

He doesn't give a fuck!

I've NEVER stopped her contacting him or him her, I've NEVER obstructed contact if anything bent over backwards yet I hear he's telling people I'm a benefit scrounging, gold digging bitch who won't let him see her or even speak to her - HE has blocked HER on phone and all social media, his own dd.

I used to do the "dignified silence" crap now I don't bother I tell the truth and I've screen shots of texts etc to prove it! He's lost friends as a result of this, not just from them learning the truth but because they felt he tried to manipulate them into getting me to stop claiming maintenance based on false information. They felt used.

Personally I don't think ons is any different - sex can = child that's life. Ons can still have contact with the child if they want, regardless that child still deserves financial support.

That said, most of the shitty nrps are not ons, and most of the children affected were planned by BOTH parents - dd certainly was. We were married several years, 1st pregnancy ended in mc, dd came along just over 18 months later. He was an enthusiastic and involved dad until the affair started. Pretty much as soon as we split he lost interest.

"the RP is at the mercy of the NRP’s decisions which are out of their control." HA! As if nrps are hard done by!

Poesy in my experience it's rare for the RP's to actually be as bad as the nrps make out and whilst I am an RP I have friends in both camps inc a few male friends who are/were RP's and their female nrp exes pulled all the same shit the male ones do!

Personally where it's a case of there's a clear RP not 50/50 then overnights on a school night, and which schools I think are ultimately the RP's decision as they're the ones having to manage school attendance and the child being rested enough etc Christmas & birthdays, holidays there has to be negotiation yes

My friends that are nrps have on occasion accused the RP's of X y z, but even though it's the nrps that are my friends I knew and was friendly with their ex's while they were still together and so had a good sense of what was likely and what was frustration and emotion talking. I've challenged them and dug deeper and the vast majority of the time things weren't as they claimed. One who is a friend from childhood he's like a cousin to me - I gave an absolute bollocking when I found out he wasn't paying maintenance a few months after he split from his ex, his reason - because "why should I pay for her to have nights out" and when I probed it was jealousy! He'd heard on the grapevine that she'd pulled on a night out and it pissed him off (they'd been split over 6 months at this point!). I not only gave him an almighty bollocking myself I told his parents who I'm also very close to and his mum - wow! She absolutely went through him! After that he got his head on straight and paid the maintenance. And we're still friends, he (much 😂) later thanked me for calling him on his shit and not letting him self sabotage by not being the good dad he really is.

That experience has made me think (and say at least on here sometimes) that we as a society need to stop being afraid to call out our friends and family if they pull this shit. Maybe then there'd be fewer kids going without - both financially and in terms of having their father in their lives?

PoesyCherish · 26/11/2018 08:08

Personally where it's a case of there's a clear RP not 50/50 then overnights on a school night, and which schools I think are ultimately the RP's decision as they're the ones having to manage school attendance and the child being rested enough etc Christmas & birthdays, holidays there has to be negotiation yes

Really? So the NRP isn't capable of making their DC go to bed at a reasonable time or taking their DC to school? Considering DSD needs to go to sleep around 7, or 7:30 at the absolute latest which happens at our house yet her Mum makes her stay up until gone 8 pm on a Sunday night as they're out at other people's houses and then complains she's tired and grumpy on a Monday morning (and no I am not just going off DP's word on this), I'm not sure it's the NRP incapable of allowing their DC to be well rested. On the choosing school fronts I disagree. If there are two schools within a very similar distance it should be a decision between both parents. The ex has prevented DSD going on school trips as a parent needed to go with them but his ex refused to let him take her.

There is no negotiation when it comes to the rest. She's had the last 6 Christmases and birthdays (every single one since they split), she's having this Christmas again and she's having her next birthday - because she point blank refuses to allow DP any contact. And you're trying to tell me it's the NRP holding all the cards - pull the other one! Although I should know by now MN is full of the bitter and twisted "oh poor me I'm hard done by" first wives club!

BitchQueen90 · 26/11/2018 08:50

PoesyCherish your case is the exception not the norm though. It's statistical fact that men are more likely to piss off and abandon their children/not pay maintenance etc than women. That's just facts.

BitchQueen90 · 26/11/2018 08:52

Oh and I'm not bitter at all, my ex is a great father and very responsible. But I have enough friends with crap exes to know that he is definitely the exception.

fuzzywuzzy · 26/11/2018 08:54

Poesy is like to read the ex’s side of this.

Is there a court order in place? If not then that’s up to the NRP.

And actually 50:50 would be disruptive to a child, going from one house to the other is not easy. There’s always going to be something left behind somewhere, different rules, disruptions. It’s not conducive to a calm living arrangement.