AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

I use to be an ally, I am not an ally anymore. There are too many men are pushing into our spaces.

My line in the sand is sex, as accurately observed at birth. Only women from birth in female spaces. NO exceptions.

Time to create third spaces for people not happy in the sex segregated places as 99% of people fall into biological male or female and are happy with the current facilities.

We should campaign for single occupancy toilets which are separate rooms and contain a sink and open to those who can't cope in the main toilets which matches their biological sex.

That way everyone has a safe place to pee, which is what everyone needs, without increasing risk to women and children.

Psychologically society identifies me as female

Can you give examples?

Ultimately the only way to eliminate gender is to recognise that males who like dresses, makeup, knitting etc, & even males who take hormones to make themselves resemble the opposite sex, are JUST AS VALID as any other males & have every right to be recognised as such.

Thank you Wrexham, and, Smile, I'm not being prurient - these questions are important to my understanding.

If a person's sexual function is as Wrex describes then there is less risk with sharing single sex spaces with trans women on this treatment. And, it means there is a measurable difference between trans women like Wrex and people who want in there to get their kicks from asking women for tampons. So, perhaps there's an opportunity to work out a compromise on access to single sex spaces (though, I know, how could you tell who was who when you come out a stall and a person who wen through male puberty was standing there?)

Also, Wrex, and I mean this respectfully, that seems like a really high price to pay. Adults are sexual beings. Were you fully informed about the effect the hormone treatments would have on your sexual function?

wrexhamtrans

What does this mean because I don't understand it:
"Psychologically society identifies me as female even though physiologically it identifies me as male"

Empress agree - the issue is not trans identity, it's fragile masculinity being threatened by men who have feminine expressions.

We don't need to broaden the bandwidth of what it is to be a woman, we need to broaden men. with a steamroller in some cases

Psychologically society identifies me as female even though physiologically it identifies me as male.

No it doesn't.

There's no such thing as pyschologically female FFS.

What a ridiculous and fucking insulting thing to say in a thread full of women. Hello ladies, I'm psychologically female, just like you!

Try, for a second, jettisoning the shitty presumptions you hold about us. We are humans of the reproductive class: female.
Whatever else you believe to be our innate characteristics is bound to be wrong.

You don't think we have men telling us what they imagine we are from morning to night every day of our lives?

Female is not a state of mind and only a sexist fuckwit would believe that being born with ovaries gives us a matching frilly personality.

Could you just TRY to see us as human beings of the opposite biological class from you and then respect us accordingly?

"Until then I am happy that on an individual basis many women I met choose to accept me as gender female and allow me into that circle."

Women are socially conditioned to pretend that they think men are women in order to be nice. These women know you were male born and went out of their way to invite you, something they wouldn't have done to a biological woman.

These women are trying to give away my right to attend an all women event by inviting you. NO group of women can give consent on the behalf of other women. If you are a true ally for women, you would of turned down the invite and let the women only event, be women only.

I agree with most of what you've written wrexham except about women's sports - I don't think transwomen should be competing against natal women unless it's a sport where size, aerobic capacity and strength don't matter. Hormones can only lessen transwomen's advantage, they can't erase it.

Everything else you're absolutely right about. I think it's sickening that people are blaming and penalising transsexuals for the TRA rhetoric. If certain women's groups suddenly started spouting (for example) racist shite, I'd hate to be tarred with the same brush.

I wish more transsexuals would come out in support of the women worried about Self ID, although I understand that many are afraid of bringing the (very scary) TRA wrath down upon themselves.

How/why do hormones chnage female height and shoe size? Thats really interesting. I was a size 3 since a teen and all through my twenties. After 4 pregnancies I'm now a 5. I assumed it was just the bo es spreading out due to carrying the extra weight of the babies.

Sorry for the derail.

It does seem that transitioning means aloss of sexual function. Especially if it is done young (Jazz). That seems a very extreme thing to have to do to address psychological pain. Is it generally the case OP?

I don't think transwomen should be competing against natal women unless it's a sport where size, aerobic capacity and strength don't matter.

But male transpeople still have strength advantage when in female spaces. Don't you think that could be intimidating and dangerous for women and girls?

"So you will work with women to keep our spaces segregated with you and every biological male firmly on the other side of our boundaries?
No males in our sports, no males in our changing rooms, no males providing intimate same sex services, no males in our statistics, no males in our prisons and categorically no clauses in law that allow males to claim legally that they are females?"

I don't think there is a right answer I could give to that.

Respecting female rights doesn't have to mean I give up who I àm as a transsexual.

You refer to "you and every biological male". I am not like most biological males. As I said before sex and gender aren't the same thing. You don't have to agree with me but please respect me enough not to lump me in as just another biological male.

When you say "no males" I would have preferred you say no males or transgendered persons but breaking it down...
No males in our sports .... personally I agree
no males in our changing rooms ..... In the majority of cases I agree but in the absence of an alternative I do not have a problem with a transitioned person.
No males providing intimate same sex services .... sort of. I think women should absolutely have a right to choose who provides these services and to refuse a trans Women. Bear in mind there are many male midwives and most gynaecologists are men.
no males in our prisons..... In the absence of an alternative where else would you put me as a biological male, gender female with breasts ? Women want protected from men absolutely but so do transwomen! I have been target on many occasions as a sex object by men.
categorically no clauses in law that allow males to claim legally that they are females?" I think there are certain and limited times when it should be allowed. Certainly no self identity. Such a claim must require clinical support and medical change.

It does seem that transitioning means aloss of sexual function. Especially if it is done young (Jazz). That seems a very extreme thing to have to do to address psychological pain. Is it generally the case OP?

With standard hormone and anti androgen treatment that is generally the case.

Here's a great summary of changes.... andiepasdedeux.com/the-unexpected-effects-of-mtf-hrt/

no males in our prisons..... In the absence of an alternative where else would you put me as a biological male, gender female with breasts ?

Why are you making your problem a problem for women to solve?

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro sure, but the transsexuals I've met are not TRA-types desperate to trample through women's spaces swinging their dicks. They're far more likely to use the accessible facilities or a locked cubicle. OP is right that the TRAs have made things worse for everyone - women used to tolerate transwomen because they were so few and were in general respectful of women's spaces. Now when we see a transwoman in a women's space we're automatically afraid because we don't know if it's a person with gender dysphoria or someone who gets off on dressing like a woman. I don't know what the answer is any more, but it makes me sad for OP and others like her. This situation is not her fault, TRAs do not represent her.

Why are you making your problem a problem for women to solve?

I'm not. You made a point I replied. It's a bit of a jump to suggest I'm putting the whole thing onto womèn to solve.

I'm not TRA by any means. I am offering to participate in discussion and put forward a transsexual position (not transgender) . Please don't attack me. I don't represent the whole trans community.

but the transsexuals I've met are not TRA-types desperate to trample through women's spaces swinging their dicks. They're far more likely to use the accessible facilities or a locked cubicle.

So why can't it be made law that all male born people a kept out of spaces where women and girls are likely to be naked or vulnerable?

Why are transsexuals like the op wanting to remove female only changing rooms hospital wards and prisons if they have no intention of being there in the first place?

Women are socially conditioned to pretend that they think men are women in order to be nice. These women know you were male born and went out of their way to invite you, something they wouldn't have done to a biological woman.

Yes.

These women are trying to give away my right to attend an all women event by inviting you. NO group of women can give consent on the behalf of other women. If you are a true ally for women, you would of turned down the invite and let the women only event, be women only.

I don’t think this is fair tbh. Woman are allowed to make their own choices and opinions without pandering to what some people might disagree with. This is what I don’t like. Invalidating a transsexuals identity in order to validate your own. Woman are not victims in every situation and it does woman a great disservice and sets us back 100 years when people keep screaming that we are

I think with prisons the rule should be - GRC and testosterone blockers for at least a year = female estate. Anyone else = male estate. However, if the individual has ever been convicted of violence or sexual offences against women or children they should be always housed in the male estate, possibly in a protected wing like the paedos for their own safety.

Also, Wrex, and I mean this respectfully, that seems like a really high price to pay. Adults are sexual beings. Were you fully informed about the effect the hormone treatments would have on your sexual function?

This isn't a side effect.... it's desirable ! I find and always did that male views towards sex are on the whole revolting to the point it makes me feel physically sick.

Psychologically society identifies me as female

I’d like to understand what you mean by this too.

Consent matters. I will NEVER give consent to being naked or vulnerable with any male stranger, and I will defend my daughter's consent on her behalf until she can give or refuse it herself.

HARD REFUSAL. NO.

well said

With regret I will not be responding to any further questions.

I am not a "sexist fuckwit", making "shitty presumptions" or being "fucking insulting". I have been nothing but polite and honest.

I didn't expect to be agreed with but I at least expected to respected for choosing to come into the lions den.

I'm not. You made a point I replied. It's a bit of a jump to suggest I'm putting the whole thing onto womèn to solve.

No it isn't. It was literally what you did.