AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

I think women need to stop feeling obliged to have 'respectful debates' on this subject. It is not at all respectful for men to say that 'womanhood' is just a feeling, that they also experience. The implications of this are too huge for women and girls

I think with prisons the rule should be - GRC and testosterone blockers for at least a year = female estate

Sorry I wholeheartedly disagree. If necessary build a trans wing on the Male estate.

Invalidating a transsexuals identity in order to validate your own.

Why is one identity is more important than the other?

The need to "respect" the feelings of MTF trans people is why our rights are being stripped away.

We either have female only spaces, or we don't. Allowing an even small group of males into that space makes it a mixed sex space. And it's been shown that it's impossible to let male transsexuals in and keep male transgender people out.

If we don't need female loos, changing rooms or prisons, let's be honest about it and say they are mixed sex.

Who are we lying to and for?

I will NEVER give my consent to being naked or vulrenable with any Male stranger
That’s what it comes down to ultimately though. Most woman feel similar (although my consultant and gynea is a man and I never even considered asking for a woman!) but a lot of woman feel that transwomen are not the same as being Male.

So ultimately when it comes down to transwoman, it does not matter what you class as female, but what you class as Male. To me I don’t class someone with a GRC, or gender dysphoria as a ‘male’ Biologically yes, but I respect people’s beliefs and if they are gender dysphoric, I have to put my faith in them in the same way I do with any woman in the cubicle next to me, that they will show the same mutual respect and get on with their day without attacking me.

This isn't a side effect.... it's desirable ! I find and always did that male views towards sex are on the whole revolting to the point it makes me feel physically sick.

That’s sad.

Most adults of both sexes really enjoy sex. I understand that the body disphoria means you were repulsed by your male anatomy but to think of all sexual desire as repulsive and something to be happy about losing entirely is really sad to me.

Wrexhamtrans:

I didn't expect to be agreed with but I at least expected to respected for choosing to come into the lions den.

Not very respectful is it to refer to this as s lions den?

You might have missed some of the questions tagged to you but it seems you are cherry picking which to answer. I know this isn't AMA but when posters are asking you things in order to understand your viewpoint it would be helpful if you answered.

Exactly eresh

Women are not obliged to be respectful of men, who are ignoring and transgressing their boundaries. They are allowed to be damn rude about that

The need to "respect" the feelings of MTF trans people is why our rights are being stripped away.

This.

wrexham dont be melodramatic, that was only one person. Everyone else was enjoying a reasoned debate, not really a debate in any case as you seem to get the position of GC women really well and have a reasoned viewpoint. I particularly appreciated you answering my question about sexual function nas inwasnt fully aware of that and have always wondered. I think its an important part of the debate now that TRAs are advocating transing children without any imformed.consent being possible.

Dont storm of an NO DEBATE like the TRAs. Thats why we're in this mess.

Fuck off, with 'the lions den' ffs.

@wrexhamtrans thank you for this thread. I understand that you don't speak for all, but it is a relief to read a normal view on all of this. The rise of the extremist TRA movement is a big worry, it is patriarchal and moves to divide & sub divide women. Bringing back 1950s stereotypes. An "acceptable" sexism, and slippery slope towards the removal of human rights. The undercurrent of it, is very unpleasant to all voice even murmurings of decent.

A question, how can we work together to prevent this patriarchal rise. How can we all make our voices heard without being accused of being transphobic?

Like many I am still an ally to trans people, but can not get on board with the extremist movement that has hijacked Stonewall & in my opinion has thrown LGB & trans people under a bus - for the benefit of a few privileged white men.

I agree with everything you said wrexhamtrans, totally respect you as a transwoman. The TRAs are the big issue and anyone who subscribes to their bullying and nasty behaviour, trying to shut down reasonable concerns and worries of biological women. Waving their masculinity in women's faces (despite stating that they are women), to shut them down and put them back into their box. I hate that any discussion around this and GRA is met with cries of transphobic and bigot, by these people.

We as biological women are meant to respect them, but where is the respect for us, it works both ways. Thanks for this discussion by the way.

To me I don’t class someone with a GRC, or gender dysphoria as a ‘male’

They are male. And you don't get to give my consent.

This isn't a side effect.... it's desirable ! I find and always did that male views towards sex are on the whole revolting to the point it makes me feel physically sick.

So do I. So, I imagine would many of the women on this forum. Doesn't make us want to become asexual, though.

The effects of transition seem drastic to me. Gender alignment surgery is not great, there's about a 30% failure rate where people can't piss post op, develop fistula, trouble with scar tissue, the neo vagina shrinks, smells and dilation needs a lot of work. Most people go back for revision because the aesthetics are not how they envisaged their vulva that they'd thought about for so many years. How could it be? It's in the wrong place on your body - a neo-vagina is never going to be the same as mine.

For TIF the effect of testosterone with vaginal atrophy is horrific. The surgery is basic, not functional and lacks sensation.

I'm a healthcare professional and I occasionally work with trans people. I sincerely don't think it is good medicine if you work from the "first, do no harm" principle. I have seen some horrendous botch jobs in work - granted, that will cause me bias because I'm only ever going to see botch jobs as I don't work in a gender clinic.

I just wish that people with dysphoria could have successful support without surgery. I am glad you are living more comfortably with the hormone treatment.

If lesbians are treated in a disgusting and appealing manner by the TRAs who are transwomen, just because they don't want a penis or a biological man, I don't think they treat biological men who don't want dick like this, they would not dare. Its part of the shut up you little women and get back into your box, you will do as we say, type thing.

These are my conditions for considering MTF trans people as my ally:

1. Don't claim to be a female. Acknowledge the difference between us.

1. Don't use spaces for women where we are likely to be naked or otherwise vulnerable.

Non negotiable.

Why are you making your problem a problem for women to solve?

I'm not. You made a point I replied. It's a bit of a jump to suggest I'm putting the whole thing onto womèn to solve.

Wrex I think you have misunderstood this a little. Is it clearer if it says “Why is an individual’s choice (to transition and become a Male sex person with gender Female presentation (breasts etc)) the problem of Women as a Class to shift up and accept, rather than the problem of society as a whole to figure out a better solution?

You did personalise the argument by saying “where would you put a person like me” so the PP was responding to that.

They are male. And you don't get to give my consent.

What makes you think you can withold mine? If I have no issue with those holding a GRC using my facilities and the law agrees with me, why must you fight to oppress transwoman further?

Do you think it’s healthy for our daughters to see woman painted as a victim all the time? Do you think it’s healthy for them to see us alienate and oppress those that we do not understand? Without any consideration? No debate is happening on both sides, you certainly won’t entertain any viewpoint that any transwoman can use facilities, even if they have no penis and have lived as a woman for 50 years. No

Human beings cannot change sex. i will never consider a man to be a women, regardless of cosmetic surgery/pharmaceuticals/bits of paper

Interesting it is always male born trans people who post these type of threads.

In the main, female born trans people still use the females spaces (as they should, they are biologically female).

So why can't male born trans people use the male spaces. After all Miranda and Hope do, with no problems.

Why push into our spaces, increasing our risks just because you want to ?

Funny how you refuse to answer any more questions once the cracks start to appear in your narrative.

You started this thread. People have tried to engage and understand more and now you're shutting down debate by refusing to engage. That's your right but pointless starting this thread.

OP There's not a woman on here who doesn't perfectly understand the difference between transsexuals and transactivists/fetishists.

But being a genuine transsexual, just means that your motivation for transitioning isn't fetishistic. That doesn't make you any more acceptable to being in a woman's space than any other male born person.

A transwoman who really, really wants to, is irrelevant as a motivation.

So I understand the arguments that you're making regarding motivation. But it doesn't change the reasons why we have sex segregation.

A transwoman would have no clue and no experience of say menstruation problems, morning sickness, and miscarriage, expressing milk, etc.

And I don't honestly don't think they think of these things when imagining a female toilet say. Which kind of makes it worse.

What makes you think you can withold mine? If I have no issue with those holding a GRC using my facilities and the law agrees with me, why must you fight to oppress transwoman further?

You don't get to consent to men in my spaces on my behalf. You don't get to give away my rights. Get it through your skull.