AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

We were responding to a PP who specifically said that while some women came out as lesbian in middle age no middle aged women came out as being a transman. We were expressing surprise at this "fact".

YY, this, same

A number of males need or choose to not pee in the urinals in men's loos, cubicals are also provided for this and other obvious reasons.
Exactly. So the PP argument that transwomen use the mens toilet because they have urinals is spurious.

Most of the environmental arguments are rubbish really. Facilities can be changed to safely accommodate everyone but even this is rejected.

It appears to me that some people are disguising their unwillingness to ever accept transmen or women behind concern over practical considerations.

So the PP argument that transwomen use the mens toilet because they have urinals is spurious.

Not sure if this is willful or accidental misunderstanding/ misrepresentation of the post.

Perhaps what the poster meant to say was that to their knowledge hardly any middle aged women came out as being a transman.

Then perhaps the poster should be careful in how they express "facts" when making their argument?

Distorting facts to justify your argument is very poor practice.

I'm not saying you never hear of late transitioning women but it appears to be rare whereas a high proportion of adult men who transition have a history as heterosexual partners and fathers.

The hundreds of trans widow accounts I've read make it very clear that transition for this group is sexually motivated. They keep their penis and enjoy cross dressing. They are one of the most common types of men who identify as women.

There are broadly two types of men who transition. Gay men who long to be seen as attractive women by straight men make up one group. I've read that they tend to be realistic about whether they'll be able to pass and will decide not to transition if they don't think they will be convincing en femme.

The second group are heterosexual and are generally AGP. They get turned on by perceiving themselves as women but are far less concerned by whether or not they're likely to pass. The fetish element seems to start off small and builds until it becomes overwhelming. Living with this is often very hard for their partners and children

Men are provided with urinals not because of their gender identity but because of their anatomy. Urinals are not provided in the ladies because women don't have penises.

This was the PP quote as to why transwomen should use the men's toilet. I don't think it's ...willful or accidental misunderstanding/ misrepresentation of the post. for me to say So the PP argument that transwomen use the mens toilet because they have urinals is spurious.

But Prawnofthepatriarchy this is what you said
Middle aged women sometimes come out as lesbians but not as transmen.

I'd say that pretty clearly says that you never hear of late transitioning in women.

sometimes BO but then that smells the same to me whether on a man or a woman.

Doesn't smell the same to me. Male scent is different.

I'm not saying you never hear of late transitioning women but it appears to be rare

Fair enough then, but that's a climb down from what you actually did say as fact before anyone questioned it.
You said middle aged women do no transition into transmen.
Presenting as fact and letting it go unchallenged without the yes yes agreeing you might get on other threads is a pretty shaky road to go down.
Fake news as they say.

I'm not saying you never hear of late transitioning women but it appears to be rare whereas a high proportion of adult men who transition have a history as heterosexual partners and fathers.

I think this was perfectly clear.

Crosspost with weetabix, yep, did clearly say it as fact.

THIS bit, not the other quote (are some people actually reading?)

Middle aged women sometimes come out as lesbians but not as transmen.

The statements:
1)Men are provided with urinals not because of their gender identity but because of their anatomy.
+
2) Urinals are not provided in the ladies because women don't have penises.

does not equal an 'argument' that transwomen use the mens toilet because they have urinals.

To claim that is the thing that is spurious.

There are broadly two types of men who transition.

Again really? You say the 2 groups are gay men and AGP. I don't believe that this is true. What about transsexuals who aren't fetishists or who after transition want to have a sexual relationship with a woman? They aren't a gay man wanting a relationship with another man are they?

Thats right...
women don't have penises

Rather than tediously nitpick a person's wording to derail perhaps people can engage with the substantive point she actually made? Or not, I guess.

This is how facts get twisted to suit agendas, this is how hate spreads whichever side it's coming from.
It's sickening but enlightening when out of FWR. It wouldn't get challenged on there. Or if someone did, they'd be a lone voice and told to define woman again or told they're being thick or not understanding properly.
(near the end of the thread and it's popped up again, it's actually a bit funny)

It isn't nitpicking words to challenge blatant misinformation.
Are we all supposed to blindly accept stuff as facts without asking or thinking more deeply? I'm not up for that.

I don't believe that this is true. What about transsexuals who aren't fetishists or who after transition want to have a sexual relationship with a woman? They aren't a gay man wanting a relationship with another man are they?

Why are you ruling out AGP? On what criteria?

Are we all supposed to blindly accept stuff as facts without asking or thinking more deeply? I'm not up for that.

Interesting.

Rather than tediously nitpick a person's wording to derail perhaps people can engage with the substantive point she actually made? Or not, I guess.

So what you mean is completely ignore the misrepresentation and made up "facts" and don't call us out on it because you know?

And no one is engaging with my points. I was asked why it was a problem to draw attention to differences, after all there's nothing wrong with being different. I answered why I don't want to be seen as different. Not one acknowledgement of what I wrote and yet I was answering a direct question.

Why are you ruling out all transwomen? What is your criteria for "having a problem with them all?"

Exactly, weetabix.

Why are you ruling out AGP? On what criteria?

I'm not ruling anything out. I am challenging the assertion that there are only 2 categories of men that transition - gay men and AGP. Why don't you answer that?

I'm not arguing that you never ever get late transitioning women but they are a tiny demographic. I was responding to a claim that late transition was comparable to gay men and lesbians who come out in middle age.

My counter to that was to point out that if this were so you'd expect it to be true for both sexes. But it isn't. Nearly all late transitioning people are male.

Sure, you can find outliers but it doesn't disprove my assertion.