AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

Not all woman’s biological needs are the same though. My sisters never had a period and will never carry a child or breastfeed, her biological experiences as a woman are different to mine - they are no less valid.

Sure, I didn't say all females have exactly the same biological needs but your sister's biological needs in general (the way she urinates, feels sexual pleasure etc, etc) are far more like other females than like a trans woman. Also her stature, musculature.....

Round and round you go, avoiding all valid opinions and questions that are a bit hard to answer

Exactly! Never actually tries to see other views, or listens, just name calls, does a "YY" or a "this" every now and again and when the end of a thread is near comes back with more longer sentences to dismiss. Last thread case in point.
It is shown up EXACTLY what is wrong with the FWR boards when it's out in AIBU and there's more differing viewpoints out.

If you oppose self ID but think "trans women" should have full access to female spaces, you must know what you think a "trans woman" is. Please elaborate. Is it surgery?

It is shown up EXACTLY what is wrong with the FWR boards when it's out in AIBU and there's more differing viewpoints out.

No, it's mostly just the same four people and their childish sophistry and flawed understanding of sex and gender.

Ereshkigal I just answered that, when you asked. Why don’t you try reading, it may help.

Verbeena yep that exactly what a specific poster does!!

I think a formal process needs to be in place so that people can be recognised as trans in order to access certain facilities such as toilets or changing rooms. It shouldn't be a casual process or done on a whim. It must take time and allow for careful thought and consideration.

BMJ article by medics: 'Redesigning gender identity services: an opportunity to generate evidence'
(extract)
"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles"

www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4490.full?ijkey=6lX93kQA0lz5YoB&keytype=ref

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410257-BMJ-article-We-need-research-to-explore-the-interplays-between-gender-identity-mental-health-and-neurodevelopmental-problems-sexual-orientation-autogynephilia-and-unpalatable-gender-roles

Tell us what a woman is, ahhhh tell us, tell us

No. That's not it,you're WRONG. Try again.

Round and round and round and round and round. You do not care what anyone else is saying as it doesn't fit YOU. Completely closed off.
I think there's a word for that.

I think a formal process needs to be in place so that people can be recognised as trans in order to access certain facilities such as toilets or changing rooms.

Can you explain why facilities such as toilets or changing rooms of the opposite sex should be accessed?

No, it's mostly just the same four people and their childish sophistry and flawed understanding of sex and gender.

Oh, we've got it wrong again. Us and our silly thoughts and our inability to understand all the grown up words.

Jean Hatchet's blog collates women's experiences:
(extract)
"Well. Women are unhappy. Lots of women are unhappy about this and we are being made to feel guilty for talking about it at work, or in public or in restaurants and bars. But actually .... lots of women don't use a rape crisis centre or a refuge. But we all use loos. This is what I found when I asked women how they feel about men in their loos. Any men. This is not about trans women. It is about women's experiences of men. Of women's girlhoods. Of their need for the safety of a place where they take down their knickers and change their tampons and sanitary towels. Of the places women feel alone sometimes. Of the places where women attend to the functional biological needs of their female bodies.

Some of this may shock you. Some of it might make you laugh. Some of it will make you angry. If you are a woman ....you will nod your head a lot.

So here we are.... women talking about women's loos. And we are NOT ASHAMED...." (continues with experiences)

jeanhatchet.blogspot.com/2018/10/a-gentleman-in-ladies.html

Jean Hatchet uses the term woman to refer to adult human females

Now you’re saying it’s nothing to do with them being a risk?

They are exactly the same risk as any other male, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary.

And it's an issue of the greatest importance for women's privacy and dignity. Why don't people like you ever consider that? It's my boundaries.

So no risk assessment or explanation of why the risk is minimised then?

Oh, we've got it wrong again. Us and our silly thoughts and our inability to understand all the grown up words.

Don't be so hard on yourself.

Can you explain why facilities such as toilets or changing rooms of the opposite sex should be accessed?

Yep. In my view, people living genuinely and consistently as the opposite sex should be recognised as that sex. That's my view.

That's a joke

Oh, we've got it wrong again. Us and our silly thoughts and our inability to understand all the grown up words

I had to slap own wrist a couple of pages back.
Maybe we should go sit in the Norty Corner and go think about what we did and what it means to be a REAL woman.
Write lines. You are only your biology.Til it sinks in for us.

Don't be so hard on yourself.

Oh believe me, I'm not being hard on myself. I'm thanking my lucky stars that I don't share the same belief systems as you.

The belief system that female people shouldn't be trampled underfoot to pander to ineffable male feelings you can't even define?

Not projection, I HAVE been answering questions mid thread before someone wanted to drag it back to playground.
Not just ridiculing others.

Tell us what a woman is, ahhhh tell us, tell us

You never have though.

VerbeenaBeeks

I think we should. We need extra classes in "what it means to be a woman" and "how to be a woman" because we've clearly been doing it wrong all this time.

We can't be REAL women if we don't do it just like some of these posters. Thems the rulez.

In my view, people living genuinely and consistently as the opposite sex should be recognised as that sex.

But we've covered this and I'm pretty sure you agreed that there is no way to live as any particular sex what with being more than just your womb.

What was that about "the playground" again?

Oh believe me, I'm not being hard on myself. I'm thanking my lucky stars that I don't share the same belief systems as you

Same, must be a rigid, unmoving vision way of living.
Interesting insight into how closed off minds can actually be when they're laid bare in here.
I imagine it like a black tunnel - other information knocking at the sides trying to get in and posters going "noooo, not listening, you're not coming in, I'm right, you're not, la la la la......" lol