AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

What does any of this matter?

What matters is keeping female bodies safe from male ones.

People's wafty sense of identity is their own concern. Keeping female bodies safe from male one's used to be the concern of feminists and the state, and supposedly all sane humans.

Why all of a sudden has this changed, and why are so many feminists so adamant that the male sense of self trumps the females need to be protected in law from the males?

If females are no longer at risk, someone needs to explain this, how has this risk been assessed and what measures are now in place to protect females?

I can accept that someone can have a sense of self that is 'woman' whether they are male or female.
But I don't have to accept that means they feel the same me.
A large part of my own sense of self includes the fact that I am a physical being with female biology. Now much of that may have come from biology classes and there may be no innate link. Nevertheless my biology, what I was taught about it, and my sense of being a woman interlink.
I can accept that a transwoman feels that she is a woman. I can respect her lifestyle. But I can't say in truth to a transwoman, 'I know just how you feel' - that's the sort of patronising bullshit we say to a lot of people when we are trying to empathise. And yet I'm supposed to accept that she knows exactly what it feels like to be a biological woman and is just the same. I'm not saying woman are better than transwomen or that we need to reject them, I'm just saying there are differences that are not the same as those between people of the same sex. I might well find myself with more in common with a specific transwoman than with another specific woman in many ways. But the biology will always be different.
I wish all good people good things, and I hope we can all find a way to live happily together but we can't always agree.

I used an analogy to show that some of the things said are not ok

An inaccurate and deeply loaded analogy.

MTF trans people should stay out of women's spaces because they are male. Not because MTF trans people are more or less likely to abuse. It's really not the same thing.

What is your reasoning then for not allowing transwoman in your facilities? Because you’ve all been going on that men are dangerous and putting us at risk. Now you’re saying it’s nothing to do with them being a risk?

An inaccurate and deeply loaded analogy
Do you think the way gay people was treated was fair?
I think you calling trans woman ‘simply men’ is an inaccurate and deeply loaded opinion.

But you surely see that is faith based and no different to someone saying that they "feel" the presence of God?

No I don't agree that as yet unexplainable medical phenomena is faith based. Medics see certain things. They know that they happen but as yet don't know why or how. They don'tbelieve that they happen.

I'm saying, that as a starting point, I can understand that a person can be born with a physical body of one sex but a sense of self that says the opposite.

But nobody has said that body dysphoria doesn't exist.

I do see similarities between the historical treatment of other minority groups - the fear that they want to take away rights or opportunities from others is one.

But surely to accept trans people would be to truly accept trans people for who they are, not for something they are not?

A trans woman is a trans woman which is an absolutely valid identity. A trans woman's biological needs however are not the same as a biological woman - and that's ok. Saying they are the same is denying the biological needs of both.

I think you calling trans woman ‘simply men’ is an inaccurate and deeply loaded opinion.

Do link to where I used the words "simply men". Also please define "trans woman", oh "opposer of self ID".

To feel the presence of God you'd have to be told there was a God in the first place to feel its presence as you're not born knowing about God.
Somebody must have told you about God in the first place for you to know there was such a thing.
So not really comparable to your sense of self that resides inside of you.

What is your reasoning then for not allowing transwoman in your facilities?

What is YOUR reasoning for allowing them in?

Sex segregated spaces exist for a reason. What changes when someone changes gender to reduce the risk?

A trans woman's biological needs however are not the same as a biological woman - and that's ok. Saying they are the same is denying the biological needs of both.

Not all woman’s biological needs are the same though. My sisters never had a period and will never carry a child or breastfeed, her biological experiences as a woman are different to mine - they are no less valid.

I find it scary that the government might make a law that I must accept that a woman who wishes to change sex to Male IS now a man despite the fact she has the wrong genitalia and XY chromosomes and that I could go to prison for not accepting this lie and using the 'wrong' pronoun.
I am happy for a woman to wish to be treated as a natal man, to dress like a natal men, to live like a natal man, and for me to call her by any pronoun or name she prefers. But the law isn't needed here.

No I don't agree that as yet unexplainable medical phenomena is faith based

Perhaps one day they'll even prove the existence of God?

Not all woman’s biological needs are the same though. My sisters never had a period and will never carry a child or breastfeed, her biological experiences as a woman are different to mine - they are no less valid.

Round and round we go with the same tedious and childish sophistry.

You missed the other part of my question there eresh
I’ve wxplained the definition, a male to female who comes under the GRC criteria. Don’t act like you don’t say transwoman are just Men, you’re one of the worst offenders on these boards

To feel the presence of a Gendered identity you'd have to be told there was a Gendered Identity in the first place to feel its presence as you're not born knowing about Gendered Identity.
Somebody must have told you about Gendered Identity in the first place for you to know there was such a thing. ?

Somebody must have told you about God in the first place for you to know there was such a thing.

But someone must have 'felt' God to be the first person to put a word to it.

To feel the presence of God you'd have to be told there was a God in the first place to feel its presence as you're not born knowing about God.

How would you know? Perhaps you just feel, like your sense of self. That's your argument, right?

You don't have to call it God, do you?

Do link to where I used the words "simply men"

You know full WELL (surely you must) that you repeatedly dismiss them all as men.
"Oh opposer of Self ID?" back to your default position of mocking differing viewpoints showing exactly why people do not engage with you and your ilk (not all, but the ones that pile on into backslapping and nastiness on the FWR board) with nobody wanting to pipe up. That started off at the start of this thread and now you're determined to try and drag it back to.
People AGREE with you about self ID, they do NOT agree with everything else you stand for in that you won't accept any transwomen at all.

Round and round we go with the same tedious and childish sophistry.

Round and round you go, avoiding all valid opinions and questions that are a bit hard to answer.

But nobody has said that body dysphoria doesn't exist

I read statements such as "it's all about the feelz" or saying that it's impossible to be born in the wrong body as denying the existence of dysphoria.

Don’t act like you don’t say transwoman are just Men, you’re one of the worst offenders on these boards

I don't tend to use the word "men". I correctly know they are male though if that helps?

I read statements such as "it's all about the feelz" or saying that it's impossible to be born in the wrong body as denying the existence of dysphoria.

Then you read them wrong. Psychological body dysmorphia exists. Why wouldn't we believe that?

Round and round you go, avoiding all valid opinions and questions that are a bit hard to answer.

LOL is all that post deserves. The projection!