AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

It really doesn't, it's possible for both gay and trans people to exist

Of course they exist. But Stonewall, the leading light of homosexual rights for decades, now no longer confirms that homosexuality means same-sex attraction.

Because transwomen are women, right?

Leading to the ridiculous situation of two homosexual men giving each other blowjobs, being called lesbian sex, if they both identify as women.

Dione see Ereshkigal link and this petition to Stonewall.

www.ipetitions.com/petition/dear-stonewall-please-reconsider-your-approach

"Stonewall’s promotion of the concept of 'gender identity’, which has it that a man or woman is anyone (of either sex) who identifies as such, is also undermining the basis of lesbian, gay and bisexual identities as orientated around same-sex attraction. Lesbians in particular are coming under pressure to accept male-bodied trans women into their spaces and as sexual partners."

Naturally, it doesn't work the other way round. Very few gay men are coming under pressure to sleep with men with vaginas.

I do not appreciate your accusations of bigotry with nothing to support your stance.

LOL. Bigot; a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.

Do you really want to go down that route?

Your sense of self is YOU. Before you know anything.

Even if everyone accepts this, what has it got to do with your actual biological sex which is what we segregate by? What would be the point of segregating by sense of self?

Leading to the ridiculous situation of two homosexual men giving each other blowjobs, being called lesbian sex, if they both identify as women

Why does it affect you who gives blow jobs to each other and what they call it as long as it’s consental on both parts?

You're telling it to me who is gay finds that argument specious and exploitative especially given that I don't know a single person who's actually been cotton ceilinged.

When and where hastrans-ideologydenied homosexuality?
Just in case this is a genuine question:
When some decided lesbians were attracted to the female gender, not female sex (as in homoSEXuality)
When some started calling lesbians who are only interested in sex with individuals who have female anatomy 'vagina fetishists'
When some write all over blogs and social media that lesbians should accept penis or learn to accept penis.
When lesbians are told they are not real lesbians because they don't want to engage in sexual acts with biologically male genitalia.
When lesbians are accused of reducing people to their genitals for being attracted to the female SEX.
When you have some TRAs seemingly arguing that sexual consent is negotiable because some reasons for saying 'no thank You' are apparently not good enough.

Meanwhile in the real world and outside the TRA echo chamber, any reasonable human being holds the view that any human being is free to choose their sexual partners however they like and individuals always have the right to choose who they want to sleep with. "No I do not want to have sex with you" is enough. Anyone who argues that fellow human beings should be guilt tripped and manipulated into sex acts with someone they don't want needs to take a look at themselves.

"I had a sense of self before knowing it was a biology thing.
I was a girl.
I knew it. Nothing to do with personality, or my body."

No, that's literally impossible.

"Girl" is just four letters from the English alphabet arranged a certain way. In and of itself it's just a sound. It may as well be a grunt or a snort. It's meaningless.
Like "grik". There's a four letter word. Are you a grik? Do you innately know? Of course not - you can't until you know what its meaning is.

It's not possible to innately know you're a 'grik' because I haven't yet told you the meaning of it.
You might begin to deduce the meaning the way every child learns language. You'd hear the word 'grik' used by adults and children around you and begin to work it out using context. Maybe grik seems to mean hop. Or saucepan. Or angry. Or baby. Your brain recognises a familiar, repetitive noise, an utterance, and searches for the meaning to fill it with.
And then each time you hear the word, it strengthens and evokes that meaning.

Sometimes a word gets corrupted with an association that doesn't belong with that word. And instead of the word evoking it's actual meaning, it invokes something else entirely.

Adolf is just a name. But I know most readers just made another association there.

The words 'then' and 'now' are not easily misunderstood. But if I say "Now then, now then, now then" I can invoke an unpleasant reaction in a small section of readers who connect another, disturbing association with that arrangement of the words.

To 'know' innately we are a particular word is to know we match its MEANING.

Girl means juvenile female human.
Or to be even more precise, it means juvenile human of the reproductive class that makes eggs and bears young.

No male child or adult has ever 'innately known' that he IS OF the class that makes eggs.
That's not possible.

Admit, in words, to yourself what meaning you associate with words like girl and female and it becomes blindingly obvious what went wrong with your thought process.

A number of boys have incorrectly associated the words for our female reproductive class with whatever personality traits they see in themselves.

And when we point out they've made the wrong associations they react angrily.

Girl does not mean what you think it means.

Amy Dyess article:
“TERF Is Hate Speech and It’s Time to Condemn It”
(extracts)
"For the most part, mainstream media and so-called LGBT organizations have chosen to ignore a specific demographic of the Me Too movement. “TERF” is a slur used to sexually harass, threaten, and silence lesbians. Instead of standing up for female homosexuals, “LGBT” orgs and media are persecuting lesbians and disguising it as social justice. The gaslighting is next level, but the majority of the world is starting to wake up to this injustice. Time’s Up! (continues)

Lesbians have the right to a word that defines who we are. We have a right to exist and take pride in our boundaries. Our existence doesn’t invalidate trans people. Plenty of pansexual and queer folks are attracted to trans people, and that’s awesome. There’s nothing hateful about being a homosexual, yet extremists don’t want homosexuality to exist. It’s sadly a common experience for lesbians to receive rape threats, death threats, and have our livelihoods threatened just for standing up to homophobia. It’s time to stand up for us."
medium.com/@amydyess83/terf-is-hate-speech-and-its-time-to-condemn-it-6efc897ce407

No, that's literally impossible

No, it ISN'T, as for ME (obviously not you) it IS a thing.

Girl does not mean what you think it means

Gosh darn it, I must be not womanning right again.

The sense of self conversation came about in answer to people feeling like the are the opposite sex to their physical self.

I think that there are many mysteries that medicine have yet to solve. Many things that are currently not understood or not explainable. But maybe one day there will be advances in science such that we can explain them.

I was just watching a tv programme about transplants. One patient post op became very unwell. Her Dr, a professor in transplant surgery, was explaining how miraculous her recovery was. He put this down to medical expertise, team work, her body's resilience and something indefinable about the patient that helped her pull through when many don't. The professor calked this "her spirit". Can you measure that or prove it's existence?

I have a medical condition, that I was born with. I lack proprioception. I don't know where my joints are, in space. The drs believe it's because my muscles and tendons don't feedback adequately to my brain. Can you measure proprioception? Can you "see it"? It's thus far measured on me telling them what I feel, so very subjective, yet medically recognised.

Not everything is tangible or measurable, yet it can still exist.

EarlyWalker

I do not appreciate your accusations of bigotry with nothing to support your stance.

LOL. Bigot; a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.

Do you really want to go down that route?

Yes I do. I'm more than happy to accept opinions. I believe lots of men think or believe or pretend to think or believe they are the opposite sex. I think women do the same.

I also respect fact.

Can you please prove to me that it is possible to change sex?

Again, please fucking prove that I am similar to a racist or homophobe for saying you cannot change sex.

You're telling it to me who is gay

What does that even mean? Are you male and you are exclusively same sex attracted to other males? Or are you a heterosexual male who is exclusively opposite sex attracted to females? Or are you a bisexual male or a bisexual female attracted to both sexes?

How, how can anyone be so set in their ways that they flat out refuse to accept people sharing their OWN experience, as it's not THEIRS?
It's amazing closed mindedness. I don't profess to know everything.
I don't agree with extremist TRA's. I don''t agree with extremist feminists.
I'm one who is open to learning more about BOTH sides.

Is it that you didn't understand the logic Verbeena?

You might just as well insist you innately know you're a grik.

Noone innately knows the meaning of every word in every language.
It's impossible for your claim to be true.

Maisy, of course it was a genuine question. But if you think I'm a troll feel free to report.

Datun, thanks for the link. It is interesting to read the opinions of others, but I mistakenly thought you were stating a fact.

Not everything is tangible or measurable, yet it can still exist.*

Exactly

Why does it affect you who gives blow jobs to each other and what they call it as long as it’s consental on both parts?

Because words mean things. Lesbian means same sex attraction. A program for lesbians should not involve men.

I don't know a single person who's actually been cotton ceilinged.

That might be due to age. Older, established lesbians don't seem to have the same problems.

Young women, just coming out, seeking lesbian support at uni, etc, are finding their spaces occupied by men.

Many parents have written on this very site about how their lesbian daughters have been vilified in school/college and across social media for refusing to acknowledge men as potential sexual partners.

Again, please fucking prove that I am similar to a racist or homophobe for saying you cannot change sex.

I used an analogy to show that some of the things said are not ok. Being intollorant of a whole group of people because you don’t believe in what they stand for. If this was black people, you would be a racist, if this was gay people you would be homophobic, it’s not hard. My tag line is - PeakLesbian, PeakJews... is that acceptable?

People used to think gay men shouldn’t be allowed near children as they were child abusers. No one admitted they were homophobic, they were just looking out for the kids.

I care about woman, which is why I disagree with self ID. Some of you go much further than this and actually your Right, why should I continue tip toeing aroundit and acting like all of you have great intentions at heart? When I’m certainly not shown the same courtesy.

But Verbeena why does the sense of self matter when we are talking about sex? Sex is the actual biology. Things are segregated by sex because the needs of the sexes are different, because of their different bodies, not different feelings.

Bold fail - top bit was weetabixandshreddies

used an analogy to show that some of the things said are not ok. Being intollorant of a whole group of people because you don’t believe in what they stand for. If this was black people, you would be a racist, if this was gay people you would be homophobic, it’s not hard

You're right, it really, really isn't, well you'd think.

Not everything is tangible or measurable, yet it can still exist.*

I agree. But you surely see that is faith based and no different to someone saying that they "feel" the presence of God?

DioneTheDiabolist
Apologies. Every now and then there are such questions from people who go on to goad. Especially on that sort of topic which has been discussed at length on here.

Personally, I'm entirely supportive of people who have dysphoria and transition to alleviate their dysphoria.
The more I see the behaviour of MRA/TRA, the more I feel the struggles of a very real minority who deserve our support are being hijacked by a nasty and malicious group of women haters.

The whole thing makes me feel sick that one group of people (largely those biologically born male) seem to think it is acceptable to place terms and conditions on a woman's right to consent to sex acts. I can't think of a world where that should ever be acceptable.

Even if everyone accepts this, what has it got to do with your actual biological sex which is what we segregate by? What would be the point of segregating by sense of self?

I am not talking about segregating based on a sense of self.

I'm saying, that as a starting point, I can understand that a person can be born with a physical body of one sex but a sense of self that says the opposite. Why this could happen or what can be done about it I don't know. But I can believe the anguish that this could cause. I'm guessing that currently medical and surgical techniques have advanced faster than possibly our understanding on the subject so that it is now possible to medically or surgically change the physical appearance to match the inner identity. 50 years ago we wouldn't have needed these debates because there were no options available.

It's an ethical debate isn't it? Along with lots of other advances in medicine that then throw up ethical dilemmas that society has to decide upon.

I do see similarities between the historical treatment of other minority groups - the fear that they want to take away rights or opportunities from others is one.

I hope that policy makers can engage all parties in reasoned debate and a balance of everyone's rights can be struck.

People used to think gay men shouldn’t be allowed near children as they were child abusers. No one admitted they were homophobic, they were just looking out for the kids.

MTF trans people should stay out of women's spaces because they are male. Not because MTF trans people are more or less likely to abuse. It's really not the same thing.