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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

999 replies

wrexhamtrans · 17/11/2018 07:36

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

  1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
  2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
  3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

OP posts:
Shriek · 18/11/2018 11:07

Yes, same then, so are lgbt same too.

I do wonder how comfortable TMen feel in men's spaces

Ereshkigal · 18/11/2018 11:13

I don't think Erish was responding to you but EarlyWalker talking about all the trans people they know that they couldn't tell were trans.

Correct. I was referring to the whataboutery of several posters on this thread.

VerbeenaBeeks · 18/11/2018 11:15

What is this 'sense of self'
This is a very well recognised psychological term. It's not just something we made up tonight for shits and giggles.If you were really interested you could read up about it

Pondering over this thread, it is actually a really interesting subject, I find it fascinating.
Sense of female self is a thing (for me) separately away from my personality and reading up on it sounds like my next internet wormhole to fall down lol.
Human psyche, and self, it's interesting. For me, not talking for everyone else obvs.

EarlyWalker · 18/11/2018 11:16

I was responding to posters saying you can spot a man everytime.

VerbeenaBeeks · 18/11/2018 11:20

I was responding to posters saying you can spot a man everytime.

I don't get this either, people say they can but not everyone can. Which is referring women back to their looks and if they "look like a woman" enough.
My butch high school friend I mentioned upthread, at least once got mistaken as my boyfriend.
Er, no. Female. Not a bloke. Bet she still gets it now.

StopTheHistrionics · 18/11/2018 11:30

It is interesting Verbeena because it's so intangible. And that's why I think it should be the basis of GD but that shouldn't mean that we pretend you can change sex.

I have a sense of myself as a woman as my biology says I am and I have experienced many things that can only be experienced by a female. But I don't have a sense of being a woman beyond that because I'm just me.

I don't have a sense of being a man because I'm not. I don't have a sense of being from a BME community because I'm not. I don't have a sense of being vegan because I'm not. Or a sense of being taller or fatter or blonde or having bigger boobs.

I could imagine having those characteristics but know I don't.

I could believe I have those characteristics and have a sense of those things being more 'natural' to me. That's fine.

But I don't think it makes me HAVE those characteristics and doesn't make it okay for me to expect others to see me as having those characteristics when I don't.

And a lot of those characteristics can be changed. Unlike sex.

Ereshkigal · 18/11/2018 11:33

So do you think entry to women's spaces should be based on whether a male can imitate a woman well enough?

Asking again.

VerbeenaBeeks · 18/11/2018 11:41

This is what I hate so much! We don’t think all catholics are pedofiles, all Muslims are terrorists etc... we don’t exclude them from life Incase they’re one of the bad ones. Or use the bad ones as excuses to not include the good ones. Reminds me of the days people thought all gay people were pedofiles.

Same. Lumping them all in together.

VerbeenaBeeks · 18/11/2018 11:45

I have a sense of myself as a woman as my biology says I am and I have experienced many things that can only be experienced by a female. But I don't have a sense of being a woman beyond that because I'm just me

Biology is obviously a thing, there is what you say too.
There seems to be something more though.
What about if you're a little kid though, and you don't really understand about the differences in body, but you KNOW there's something not right?
I had a sense of self before knowing it was a biology thing.
I was a girl.
I knew it. Nothing to do with personality, or my body.

OldCrone · 18/11/2018 11:48

I had a sense of self before knowing it was a biology thing.
I was a girl.
I knew it. Nothing to do with personality, or my body.

Until we can find a way to measure this 'knowing' it is just conjecture. Just like some people 'know' that god exists.

VerbeenaBeeks · 18/11/2018 12:12

Just like some people 'know' that god exists
I don't think it is the same though, as believing in God is an outside, learned, thing - you're taught that there is or isn't a God so you then believe accordingly.
Sense of self is there before you are told anything, it's part of your body and you. You'd surely know if something was or wasn't right before knowing exactly what it is that is wrong. As it'd be you.

StopTheHistrionics · 18/11/2018 12:13

VerbeenaBeeks

This is what I hate so much! We don’t think all catholics are pedofiles, all Muslims are terrorists etc... we don’t exclude them from life Incase they’re one of the bad ones. Or use the bad ones as excuses to not include the good ones. Reminds me of the days people thought all gay people were pedofiles.

Bullshit analogy that keeps being trotted out. Belief systems and facts; like sex or species are very different.

A more accurate analogy would be: I have a ducks home for ducks. It's all good. Occasionally some cats stroll in and it's okay, they're not harming the ducks and they still know they're cats.

At some point some more cats come in and they stay a bit longer and now some of them want to be called ducks. Not massively keen on the idea but theses cats seem nice and we want them to be happy and feel included so okay.

A few ducks express concern that historically, cats are a risk to ducks and maybe now there are more cats wanting into the ducks home, we need to think about that? Because they are cats.

They're told they're prejudiced and these cats are really ducks so aren't a problem and should be supported by the ducks.

Some cats do hurt ducks while saying they are ducks too but it's a bit taboo to say it because it's excluding all the cats and some of them really do think they're ducks so should be in the ducks home.....but no-one really knows how to tell the difference between the cats that really believe they're ducks and the others.

So the duck home owner says 'just ducks, no cats' and the cats aren't happy and their supporters say some cats are bad but we should let all cats into the ducks home anyway because this one is probably okay.

And when we we give examples of lots of cats that did bad things while claiming to be ducks, we're accused of focusing on the negatives and being prejudiced.

Islam, Catholicism, veganism etc are all belief systems you identify with or not.

Sex/species is fact. Whatever you believe.

And the original point and my view is 'no cats in the duck home'. Not because I don't believe that some cats really believe they're a duck. Not that most aren't a threat to ducks. Not that some cats look like ducks and people wouldn't notice.

But because one group is ducks and the other cats.

Datun · 18/11/2018 12:22

Apart from anything else, given that one's sense of self in terms of gender is something that some people have and is aligned to their sex, some people don't have it at all, other people have it and it doesn't belong to their sex, some people say it's fluid and changes daily or weekly, other people have dozens of different senses of self, and some people's sense of self is that they are a dog... it's really not a good, or remotely useful basis, on which to segregate people in terms of safeguarding.

VerbeenaBeeks · 18/11/2018 12:23

VerbeenaBeeks
This is what I hate so much! We don’t think all catholics are pedofiles, all Muslims are terrorists etc... we don’t exclude them from life Incase they’re one of the bad ones. Or use the bad ones as excuses to not include the good ones. Reminds me of the days people thought all gay people were pedofiles.

Just for thread clarification, it wasn't me who said that, I quoted too even though my name seems to be at the top of it - although I did agree with it. Smile

VotingFox · 18/11/2018 12:23

Bullshit analogy that keeps being trotted out. Belief systems and facts; like sex or species are very different.

I think people are just politely holding off comparing you with racists or homophobes.

Datun · 18/11/2018 12:29

Since the trans-ideology actually denies homosexuality, on the basis of same-sex attraction, accusations of homophobia pure projection.

I have no idea why you think sex segregation is racist, but knock yourself out.

Ereshkigal · 18/11/2018 12:33

What Datun said. I can't even begin to engage with this level of dishonest sophistry.

VotingFox · 18/11/2018 12:33

Since the trans-ideology actually denies homosexuality, on the basis of same-sex attraction, accusations of homophobia pure projection.

It really doesn't, it's possible for both gay and trans people to exist and it would be lovely if you stopped co-opting gay people willy-nilly into your campaign.

And it's a comparison, not a conflation.

Ereshkigal · 18/11/2018 12:34

would be lovely if you stopped co-opting gay people willy-nilly into your campaign.

Tell that to the many gay and lesbian people who have concerns about the transagenda.

StopTheHistrionics · 18/11/2018 12:35

VerbeenaBeeks

I have a sense of myself as a woman as my biology says I am and I have experienced many things that can only be experienced by a female. But I don't have a sense of being a woman beyond that because I'm just me

Biology is obviously a thing, there is what you say too.
There seems to be something more though.
What about if you're a little kid though, and you don't really understand about the differences in body, but you KNOW there's something not right?
I had a sense of self before knowing it was a biology thing.
I was a girl.
I knew it. Nothing to do with personality, or my body.

What is knowing when it comes outside of factual evidence like sex?

A 'knowing' is just a belief surely if not backed up by evidence?

I feel I like I 'know' there is no God based on an absence of evidence but millions of people do 'know' there is a God and believe they have evidence.

By the reasoning of some people, if I had a sense of being Afro-carribean and my white body is wrong, then I am Afro-Carribean? I become that? And should be allowed to join the Afro-Carribean groups?

If I identify as vegan but tuck into a pork chop because I identify that as being a vegetable, am I vegan?

This bizarre acceptance of one totally impossible thing but no to other totally impossible things is another example of how delusional the agenda is for many people.

Ereshkigal · 18/11/2018 12:36

"Cotton Ceiling" evidence thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

jellyfrizz · 18/11/2018 12:37

I had a sense of self before knowing it was a biology thing.
I was a girl.
I knew it. Nothing to do with personality, or my body.

And that's ok. But sex-segregated areas are segregated by the body rather than personality or sense of self. It makes no sense to segregate by anything else because the reason they are segregated are because of differences in the body.

DioneTheDiabolist · 18/11/2018 12:38

Since the trans-ideology actually denies homosexuality,
When and where has trans-ideology denied homosexuality?

VerbeenaBeeks · 18/11/2018 12:39

I feel I like I 'know' there is no God based on an absence of evidence but millions of people do 'know' there is a God and believe they have evidence.

As I said though, that's not really the same, as you're taught or not about God, it's an outside influence that you become aware of.
Your sense of self is YOU. Before you know anything.

StopTheHistrionics · 18/11/2018 12:43

VotingFox

Bullshit analogy that keeps being trotted out. Belief systems and facts; like sex or species are very different.

I think people are just politely holding off comparing you with racists or homophobes.

Seriously, please tell me how I am in any way comparable to a racist or a homophobe by saying it is impossible to change sex?

It is fact. I do not appreciate your accusations of bigotry with nothing to support your stance.