AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

YABU to think that you will get a respectful debate here, no matter what your intentions are.
Nailed it Trills.

Has anyone seen a trans woman who actually passes, though?

I've seen people who pass in photographs with good photoshop lighting, but, when you see them move or with other people, no chance, mate. They don't pass. Caveat of there are some races with body types which are much less hulking, of course - so, they can probably get away with it.

Transmen retain their broad pelvis, narrow shoulders, small hands and lack of height - you can have a beard and muscles and tattoos, but, you don't look quite right.

We identify people's sex instantly and accurately - it's an evolutionary thing.

So, this acceptance that some trans women have been accessing our toilets forever without us knowing - is bollocks. Literal bollocks.

What is not fair is calling for the exclusion or making assumptions of all transpeople because of rhe bad intentions of a few.

They are male. Hence the need for their "exclusion" from female spaces where women are naked or otherwise vulnerable. Women have a right to privacy and dignity. Your sophistry is deeply unconvincing.

So when you see a big broad woman, do you assume she’s a man? Not all woman have to be dainty.
I’ve worked with several transwoman and didn’t know until I was told. They were all 50+ and there was nothing about their body that made me think they were a man. But I’m not really in the business of judging woman by their bodies so it never occurred to me to screutinise them tbh.
My friend who is a transman looks like a man. When I told DP when we first met that he was born female, DP couldn’t believe it.
I think this whole ‘spot the man’ thing is mostly just used to try and invalidate them.

Small stature and body frame by ethnicity and hormones from teens? That TW might 'pass'. Not that I agree that 'passing' should matter, but a male bodied person doesn't usually.

I know one Transman who would pass at first or even second glance as he's huge, hairy and covered in tattoos but when he smiles or laughs he looks very feminine.

Other transmen I know look like Hobbit versions of men. And forearm scarring (that looks like burns when healed and hair grown over) is a big giveaway for phalloplasty.

So do you think entry to women's spaces should be based on whether a male can imitate a woman well enough?

Not trying to invalidate anyone. Just saying that when people say 'you can't tell the difference', people usually can.

And that whataboutery is a common diversionary tactic.

I think like everything that there will be people who can absolutely spot every trans person, those who couldnt spot a transperson to save their life, and others that may struggle with some transpeople

It makes no sense to me for people saying it's virtually impossible to tell the difference and others saying you can do it everytime

Some people can, some cant...seems much more sensible a stance to me

Ereshkigal

So do you think entry to women's spaces should be based on whether a male can imitate a woman well enough?

Seems to be the jist. It's why I (and many transpeople) object to whether someone 'passes' or not to make them superior in some way to those that don't 'pass' - because there are many.

Passing also depends on context. We might not spot the sex of someone who works in a different department who we only know from the queue at the canteen. But sharing a prison cell with someone might give us more clues to their sex.

Why has gender identity become of primary importance? What is the problem with separating by sex for those small number of circumstances where privacy, dignity or safety are relevant?

That's true Rufus. I can tell the overwhelming majority of the time but I'm skilled and trained in observation and non-verbal communication. I shouldn't assume everyone else can do the same.

Absolutely stop

It makes oerfect sense to me that some people are much better at those things whether through training or naturally

I can usually tell when people are upset, virtually always and some of my friends cant at all. I dont trot round saying that its obvious that everyone is empathetic and my friends dont tell me it's impossible for me to know what someone else is feeling

Why has gender identity become of primary importance? What is the problem with separating by sex for those small number of circumstances where privacy, dignity or safety are relevant?

This is what I don’t understand. Our sex shouldn’t be relevant in most of life - only the parts where biology makes a difference.

I can’t think of any area of life where gender identity should make a difference to the way you are treated.

Good post whyyounot

Rufus that's a good point. I occasionally work with trans people and I am very good at recognising faces. Could well be that.

Early, no, I'm saying that when I see big, broad women, let's add in facial hair, a buzz cut, a suit and a stomping walk, I'd still recognise her as female.

You keep saying that anything negative here is "trying to invalidate them". I'd flip that and say that the constant "so beautiful, so brave" validation is untrue, unhelpful and damaging.

Erish no, I didn't say that people who pass are welcome in female spaces. I didn't mention anything about access to female spaces. But, for clarity, I want sex segregated spaces until male violence stops killing two women a week. Once men can behave themselves I'll review my stance.

If penises have been passing undetected, into women's spaces, they shouldn't have been, I and other women will feel violated, that we could have been naked with our naked DC right next to a man in say swim change

I don’t think it’s fair to say everyone who transitions later in life is cosplaying and has watched a shedload of porn. What about those that have been married for 20 years then come out as gay? Is that a fetish too?

Yes, as I said upthread,how is that any different if you're gay? People hide their true self being gay until 40s and 50s etc.
It's not a huge leap in thinking (well, you'd think) that for transwomen and men it could actually be the same.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I don't think Erish was responding to you but EarlyWalker talking about all the trans people they know that they couldn't tell were trans.

"I don’t believe that anyone has to conform, but if everyone made an effort to try and understand those that are different to themselves, it would have stopped a lot of wars and oppressive movements."

Ooh, just seen this. This, I like. Sooo, soooo true.

When did invalidating someone become the worst thing you can possibly do?
In the instances here it means nothing more than not being willing to lie.

Has anyone seen a trans woman who actually passes, though?

I can tell the overwhelming majority of the time

ARGH! Do you not understand the whole concept of test sensitivity and false negatives?

I think this whole ‘spot the man’ thing is mostly just used to try and invalidate them

What? I use my senses to make sense of the world, I don't deliberately use them to invalidate other people.

if there is a man in a female toilets and I am alone, I'll get out of there. not to invalidate the man, but for my own safety. ALL the personal safety training has been to never get yourself blocked into a room with a lone male until it is safe to do so.

If there is a man in a female toilets and I am not alone, I'm on high alert to see what is going on, who else has clocked him, where the exits are, is anyone in a vulnerable position and what else is going on. There are actions that I cannot overrule just to 'validate' him.

I don't get that it's about understanding...different to themselves
Isn't it about having very private spaces only for women accessed by men?
Everyone else seems to understand each other, don't they

I don’t believe that anyone has to conform, but if everyone made an effort to try and understand those that are different to themselves, it would have stopped a lot of wars and oppressive movements."

I do understand trans people. I also understand people who believe they are trans and are not. I also understand people who pretend to be trans for nefarious reasons.

I don't want anyone of the sex male to appropriate female spaces. Because they're male.

It's not a lack of understanding. Its sex segregated spaces.