AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

They can fight for and fund as many as they want. Like women had to do.
How many trans refuges has stonewall funded? (They carried forward nearly £5 million end of 2017)

Have you thought about the logistics?

they c/f nearly £5m ...and have they funded any refuge support for lgbt?

Waaaaht!

VotingFox
Have you thought about the logistics?

Not my job. Women wanted it, we fought hard and made our own way. Trans people are welcome to do that work for themselves with my support. Have you asked stonewall?

Not my job. Women wanted it, we fought hard and made our own way.

Well actually no, trans women have always stood with other women IME. And the point is, with maybe 1% of the demand of women's refuges, you're either going to have a lot of overpriced underused refuges taking funds from other services, most likely women's services, or small number too far from the people who need them and thus again underused. But you don't care, do you, as long as you can pull up your drawbridge and convince yourself that you're better off that way.

We have a separately funded support service here for LGBT people who have experienced sexual or domestic violence. However I'd be surprised if there was the same demand for refuge services for trans women as for women, based on the fact that they do not have the same strength disadvantage that women have, many have made careers as heterosexual men and have that economic power, and I would imagine are less likely to have care of children to also accommodate. If they are in the position of needing to flee violence then there is other emergency housing provision that can be found, there is no need for bricks and mortar, trans people could create an emergency fund that would give a few night's emergency accommodation whilst a more permanent arrangement is sorted out. Or if a refuge is needed I don't see why this is logistically any different from a women's refuge, yes there would be fewer of them so trans people might be more likely to need to travel, but then women often have to travel anyway because they are scared for their lives. There are ways around all of these problems but I haven't seen any sign of trans people trying to sort them out.

Well actually no, trans women have always stood with other women IME.

I have been involved with women's services for 30 years and I haven't seen any evidence of this.

There are ways around all of these problems but I haven't seen any sign of trans people trying to sort them out.

No, because this issue is not considered important for most of them. They want into women's spaces or nothing.

I don’t think it’s fair to say everyone who transitions later in life is cosplaying and has watched a shedload of porn. What about those that have been married for 20 years then come out as gay? Is that a fetish too?

I don’t think it’s fair to say everyone who transitions later in life is cosplaying and has watched a shedload of porn

No one's saying it's everyone, just that it happens.

A man with gender dysphoria is not a woman.

Having gender dysphoria does not mean you are actually the opposite sex.

A male who identifies as transgender without having gender dysphoria is also not a woman.

A man who feels like a woman is not a woman.

The category of women is not based on people who are not men.

Nobody can tell me why I have to 'accept' these men as women. I feel like all those men should have exactly the same human rights as the rest of us, not more. Wear what you want, change your name, have cosmetic surgery, seek help for dealing with gender dysphoria if you have it, but that doesn't make you the opposite sex.

And the idea that we can't tell if someone is male or female therefore we should just let anybody who says they are a women into womens spaces is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as the idea that feminism is about reducing women to their biology.

All sorts of shit happens and picking relentlessly on the worst aspects of any minority is in fact prejudice.

Correction:

The category of women is not based on people who men say are not men.

No one's saying it's everyone, just that it happens.

Prawns comment kind of does.

All sorts of shit happens and picking relentlessly on the worst aspects of any minority is in fact prejudice.
This is what I hate so much! We don’t think all catholics are pedofiles, all Muslims are terrorists etc... we don’t exclude them from life Incase they’re one of the bad ones. Or use the bad ones as excuses to not include the good ones.

Reminds me of the days people thought all gay people were pedofiles.

This article might be interesting, it party shows why I believe, this debate is setting us back in time when we’ve come so far - www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2001/mar/03/gayrights.weekend7

So we pretend we haven't heard that TW have committed crimes when accessing female spaces? We pretend that the study in Oxfordshire of every single person seeking referral to gender identity clinics over a number of years didn't uncover a small group of paedophiles who wanted to become 'female' because it would make it easier for them to access children as women are perceived as safer?

We don't discuss any of that because it's prejudice to?

So we can't say X or Y might happen because it's prejudice to even suggest such things and we can't say when it actually has happened because it's prejudice to talk about negative things committed by members of a particular group.

Righto.

This is what I hate so much! We don’t think all catholics are pedofiles, all Muslims are terrorists etc... we don’t exclude them from life Incase they’re one of the bad ones. Or use the bad ones as excuses to not include the good ones.

I get what you're saying and how it can come across but we aren't saying trans women are all paedophiles we're just saying that evidence at the moment about offending behaviour and also what we observe in the world in relation to their current abusive behaviour towards gender critical women and transsexuals indicates that they are men. So we want to treat them as men. This is not saying they are all paedophiles in the same way we are not saying all men are paedophiles.

Stop I don’t think you should discuss, absolutely discuss it and address your concerns. What is not fair is calling for the exclusion or making assumptions of all transpeople because of rhe bad intentions of a few.

What is the Oxfordshire study? I’ve not heard that one before, I’d like to read it as I’m still educating myself.

* What is not fair is calling for the exclusion or making assumptions of all transpeople because of rhe bad intentions of a few.*

So should we invite men into our hospital wards, refuges and prisons then?

Bold fail!

This is what I hate so much! We don’t think all catholics are pedofiles, all Muslims are terrorists etc...

James Kirkup "acknowledging that some sex offenders will use gender laws to facilitate their abuse is no more “anti-trans” than accepting that some sex offenders used their positions as Roman Catholic priests to carry out abuse is anti-Catholic. Bad people do bad things. Anyone making, implementing or advising on policy should accept that basic fact and work to mitigate it, not cry bigot when someone asks whether that policy is open to misuse." (continues)
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/the-cautionary-tale-of-karen-white-the-transgender-rapist

Male pattern abuse and violence is not mitigated by gender identity.

What we should be acutely aware of is the consequences when a group involved with abuse are protected by their status, job, religion, sexuality, gender identity, race etc the opportunity for abuse increases and the possibility of naming it and protecting victims diminishes.

I think it's fairer actually to say no TW in female spaces because they're not female than to say well some of you can, if you meet certain criteria . .of which everyone disagrees about. Some say GD, some say surgery and hormones, some say just the 'feeling of being in the wrong body'. Some say you can be a woman and still keep your penis and beard.

Then when you say well the criteria failed to stop e.g Karen White you're accused of being prejudiced or a bigot or excluding all on the basis of a small number when actually, I just said no I'm excluding all because they're not female but you keep telling me some meet your personal criteria of a woman and most TW are fine but there are also perverts and liars and you don't agree with self ID. But the problem is that no-one can tell who is fine and who isn't because the 'criteria' doesn't work.

www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/6B5F217162ABD9B3189F2EB82787034E/S1758320900012695a.pdf/gender_reassignment_5_years_of_referrals_in_oxfordshire.pdf

Oxfordshire study, see final paragraph of discussion. Men not referred to GI clinics because they are paedophiles seeking to reassign to access children. Anyone who thinks all of these men will be successfully filtered out because of 'criteria' is taking a risk I don't want to take.

And it's proved already not to be the case as we already know of males with convictions for sex offences against women and/or children have met 'criteria' and been put forward to transition.

Karen White being one. If you welcome some TW as women you have to welcome her as well. She is a TW.

Sorry, final paragraph of results in that study.

VotingFox
Take your guilt trip to stonewall. They have £5 million more than I do. Try to pry open their wallet rather than steal the crumbs women gathered to help themselves.

I know the thread has moved on a little, but the argument always seems to be that all transwomen want is safety and dignity, to be able to pee and get changed in peace. This is then followed with the 'fact' that the only way this is possible is if they can use female facilities, that it will dehumanise them to use the men's.

The third space already exists, it might be slightly more complicated arranging your life to use it, but it's something I have managed to do for years, as have many other people I know.

I am a woman with male children and ever since they got to the age of being too old to be in the women's, but not quite old enough for the men's, I've found ways of dealing with it, as have many other mothers I know. It's really not that difficult, so it shouldn't be held up as an impossible ideal we all have to fight for.

Locally the library and museum have unisex, individual cubicle toilets, so we use those when we're in town. I know which swimming pool only has communal changing and avoid it. It does take a bit of planning sometimes, but if you're so unhappy with your body that you can't bear to use the facilities for your biological sex, then surely giving a small amount of thought to what facilities are available where, is not such a great hardship in comparison?

@wrexhamtrans thank you so much for starting this!

I think what I'm really interested in is how - if we accept that gender is performative - the binary is actually being reinforced by insistence on becoming a woman or man, rather than presenting as somewhere on the apectrum of male - female.

If trans identity were not so pilloried in our society and instead - as in many cultures around the world - gender fluidity was recognised and afforded its own classifications, would the same insistence on the binary exist? In a society that gave specific space to trans people, would there still be a desire to pass as a natal man or woman? And would yhe perception of being born in the 'wrong' body exist if we didn't preconceive the idea of the 'right' way to exist in those bodies? Essentially, it seems from the outside like an impossible assimilation of trans and female experience is preferred over a positive trans identity.

I really feel scared by the erasure of natal female experience, especially the ideas of unnuanced cis privilege around being born in a female body and the unimportance of female reproductive organs to the experience and needs of women. There is a privilege to identifying with one's assigned gender, no doubt. But for natal women this is mitigated by not identifying with how society sees our bodies - and by extension us - as objects and fair game for attack. Our biology is also fundamentally linked to our oplression and ongoing dismissal especially in healthcare as most people who've ever goven birth can attest.

Woyld love your views on this and thank you for reading!