AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

So how do you identify this sense of self with femaleness? How do you know it isn't a male but non body dysphoric sense?

What are you wanting, blood? Just.... I've explained. The best I can. As someone upthread said, how do you expect normal non psychologist people to explain when psychologists and scientists can't fully explain everything themselves yet?

How do you know it isn't a male but non body dysphoric sense?

I don't because I'm not male. I do know what it's like to know in your head you're female though.

Homogenous, homologous, heterogeneous... None of these words is a substitute for the cs word, VotingFox*. In fact two of them are opposites to each other.

Homogenous = of the same kind; alike.
Homologous = having the same relation, relative position, or structure.
Heterogeneous = diverse in character or content.

You're going to think of a new name for that tiny mythical group who are walking stereotypes.

You feel a feeling in your head and describe it as female. But what about that feeling attaches it to the word female rather than the word male? We learn the meaning of words by making observations, but you can't observe the insides of other people's heads to say "ah yes, female feels like this, and I feel like that too so yay I'm female".

But what about that feeling attaches it to the word female rather than the word male?

It doesn't attach itself to any word, it attaches to you being the person you are.
You know you are, you feel you are, you just know. You're female, and embrace its changes even through puberty and you know you're female.
You just do. Nothing to do with being just a womb or a menstruator (thanks upthread) even though that's a part of being a woman too for me.
There's more to it.

Gender identity and sex are very different. Sex is fixed whereas gender identity is not. Everyone has a sex. Not everyone has a gender identity.

Furthermore those who claim to know their gender identity means they "feel like" being a member of the opposite sex cannot provide anything but their subjective belief that this is true. It's a belief system. But I am not obligated to go along with the irrational beliefs of others

I can see absolutely no reason why gender identity (which not everyone has and which can be transient) should take precedence over a person's immutable sex (which everyone has).

People can and do change their gender identity. Look at all those married dads who transition in their fifties.

No, sex is what matters. It's not as if transition makes men who identify as women any less of a risk than any other men.

Gender identity is fine for believers. It's trying to put it in place of sex in terms of safeguarding and opportunities that causes the pushback from women.

you can't observe the insides of other people's heads

In reality, you can only feel like yourself.

You can like or dislike being female. You can wish you were male. But you can't 'feel female' if you're male. And if you feel female when you are female, all you're doing is feeling like yourself. Maybe, verbeena, what you call 'feeling female' is just a sense that you're content about the fact that you're female and you don't wish that you were male.

Gender identity and sex are very different. Sex is fixed whereas gender identity is not. Everyone has a sex. Not everyone has a gender identity.

I agree with that. Sex obviously fixed, gender not so much as is shown on these threads with people saying they don't feel like a woman.
As you say, not everyone has a gender identity. Some DO though. I'm one.

People can and do change their gender identity. Look at all those married dads who transition in their fifties

Yes, because maybe they've been living a lie and trying to convince themselves for decades and then think fuckit? I want to be me.

As an over 40 year old I can get that. The older I get the more I just don't give a shit about conforming (not that I ever did in the first place lol.)

I feel similar to other females, as a female myself. I don't know how other females feel, but the ones I talk to and have known along my life path so far relate similarly. I'm probably not the most girly girl, but I still enjoy the 'feminine' traits.
I also do science and math, biology, and creativity, which doesn't necessarily affiliate me to all other females.
I therefore how much of my/our female identity/gender role comes from literally matching biology, and the shared experience of that, knowing the challenges periods can bring, pregnancy, childbirth.

Trying to get to the essence of female in my own head, and it does seem that transsexuals are also basis g their female 'feelings' on the need to look and feel biologically female too.
However, the tra's don't seem to, or just sometimes, and proud of their retained 'maleness' which a transsexual doesn't want to acknowledge?

This is what I have gleaned, as well as the respectful alliance that always previously, and hopefully still exists, between transsexual women and women.

I fear that transsexual women, and transsexual men have been caught up in the general view of tra's, and only recently I realised that consensus does not exist.

I hope I am not saying anything to offend here as that really wouldn't be my intention, but I am not happy with the unasked and unwanted invasion of the spaces for women and children , neither am I happy that suddenly my status of 'woman' is being constantly qualified and prefixed with a 'cis', 'natal', or such.

I apologise for nrtft, and only caught a bit of the previous thread before it was filled and gone!

I'm all for some reasoned discussion, and not before time.

Maybe, verbeena, what you call 'feeling female' is just a sense that you're content about the fact that you're female and you don't wish that you were male

No, that's not it. I'm content in my own skin. I "match up.".
It's not just biology. Maybe for some, but it's not for me and others.

Homogenous, homologous, heterogeneous... None of these words is a substitute for the cs word, VotingFox. In fact two of them are opposites to each other.*

Yes, thank you, Prawnofthepatriarchy, I was saying you can have homogenous for c*s gender and heterogeneous for trans, I was trying to be conciliatory, and your response is to try and pick holes in my command of English, which, I'd suggest, is not a fruitful path upon which to embark.

But you can't 'feel female' if you're male. And if you feel female when you are female, all you're doing is feeling like yourself

There's more to female than biology and your likes though. Just like I'm presuming there'll be more to being a male, your inner self will feel "proper" male if it matches up to body wise.
Just like me female wise.
It's not feeling like yourself at all.

Yes, because maybe they've been living a lie and trying to convince themselves for decades and then think fuckit? I want to be me.

I'm sorry, but I flatly don't believe that men who have benefited extensively from male privilege and lived as heterosexual husbands and fathers are secretly women. Read the trans widows thread if you don't believe me.

If you watch any of the Caitlyn Jenner videos it's perfectly obvious that Jenner doesn't actually come across as a woman or believe they are one. Jenner famously said the hardest part of being a woman was deciding what to wear. Says it all really.

The AGP middle aged men like the one I know were happy to enjoy that sweet male privilege as they rose the ladder at work, married and had kids that their wives mostly looked after .

They then ditch the wife (or persuade her she's in a lesbian relationship), wear "woman" like cosplay and never recognize how invasive and insulting it is.

I do not believe that people like this have always been women. They are men who have consumed a shedload of porn and identify as women.

I'm sorry, but I flatly don't believe that men who have benefited extensively from male privilege and lived as heterosexual husbands and fathers are secretly women. Read the trans widows thread if you don't believe me

I'm not claiming to speak for them, as I'm not one obviously. So what if you have benefited from male privilege all your life and lived as a heterosexual husband?
Doesn't mean you can't have been battling with and trying to hide that you "feel" female and just know you are.
Same kind of argument in a way that people hiding the fact that they're gay until older and been married. Doesn't mean that they haven't been that way all along.

They then ditch the wife (or persuade her she's in a lesbian relationship), wear "woman" like cosplay and never recognize how invasive and insulting it is. I do not believe that people like this have always been women. They are men who have consumed a shedload of porn and identify as women.

I'm with you on that from what you've described - sounds like something done for fun or kicks for them.From what you say it's dressing up as a woman for kicks, that's not the same. They should't have the same rights.
I don't presume that's for everyone though. Some could quite legitimately feel they were born in the wrong body.
Why should they not ever be seen as women? Even though they've never done anything wrong and been born that way?

I think the ones that were 'born' that way, wanting to be female, no they haven't done anything wrong, but the likes of Bruce Jenner just want to dress up as women, well I thought that's was just being a transvestite, like Eddie izzard, doesn't have to pretend he's a woman, he's speaks of being a heterosexual male that loves a skirt and a pair of kinky boots!
A man that wants to keep his penis is identifying with maleness. I say this as nowhere in history has a vagina been male, or until now a penis female which clearly it isnt

Exactly the same I would think.

Then your ner ner gotcha doesn't work, does it. There will always be a problem, so third space is the fairest way, quite clearly. And trans people need to realise that presenting as the opposite sex may not be easy.

Some could quite legitimately feel they were born in the wrong body.
Why should they not ever be seen as women?

Why shouldn't a male be seen as a woman? Because we don't pander to other people's psychological conditions in the same way. We don't give anorexics a gastric band. We don't call them obese.

They then ditch the wife (or persuade her she's in a lesbian relationship), wear "woman" like cosplay and never recognize how invasive and insulting it is.

I do not believe that people like this have always been women. They are men who have consumed a shedload of porn and identify as women.

This. They know full well they aren't the same as women. Their goal is to make the term meaningless. They don't care what that means for actual women.

No, that's not it. I'm content in my own skin. I "match up.".
It's not just biology. Maybe for some, but it's not for me and others.

You have absolutely no way of knowing that. It's a faith position. You are your body. You are your biology.

Is it so hard to accept that gender identity might manifest on a scale from 0 to Very Prominent and other people do have a perceptible sense of their gender identity, be it cis (eg Shania) or trans?

Not hard to accept. I just take that theory with a vast pinch of salt, like I would any other theory with little to no evidence.

So how many trans women's refuges would you want to have per, say, 100 female-only refuges?

VotingFox

So how many trans women's refuges would you want to have per, say, 100 female-only refuges?

They can fight for and fund as many as they want. Like women had to do.
How many trans refuges has stonewall funded? (They carried forward nearly £5 million end of 2017)

No Self ID wouldn't have made a difference for Karen White.

She 'lived as a woman' and had a diagnosis of GD. That's why she was on a female MH ward where she raped a woman with her penis. That's why she was in a female prison where she sexually assaulted women, including with her penis.

You can't pick and chose which trans people are okay to you and your definition and therefore allowed in the 'woman' club or not.

You either accept all in womens spaces, jobs, roles, refuges, wards, prisons, sport or none.