AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

Nah they didnt create public toilets to have a "home from home".

It was so they could use the loo. In peace. Without males.

Males didnt like that, in fact they burnt the first one down. 100 years later males are still attacking female spaces and there are still women, like earlywalker saying we should just not use them.

Nothing changes.

Well, historically only men were allowed bathrooms. Woman had to drop and squat or hold it. Then in the Victorian era woman started working (horray!) and as the woman’s place was the house (of course!) they thought they’d create them a homely ‘home from home’ environment in a woman’s restroom and it all went from there really.

Are you drunk?

And there it is.

Females who do not like and do not want males in female spaces should just stay home.
It took another 100 years but with the help of some females, males have finally succeeded in putting females back where they belong....😑

I want my daughter to be able to grow into who she wants to be, and never feel held back by her biology. However the new wave of feminists that are supposed to be helping to pave the way for her to do this are telling her that firstly all that matters is her biology and what’s in her pants but also that she should feel vulrenable in all situations because of it. I don’t like it: I don’t think it’s healthy.

Knowing what your vulnerabilities are and anticipating how these could be exploited is part of keeping yourself safe. If you think you're invincible and immune to attack you are more likely to become a victim.

This is not the same as saying you are a weak victim who should never do anything or take any risks.

I'm now questioning my womanning at home on a Saturday night with wine, what the heck's happened to me lately lol.

I do NOT like the word cis.
I am against Self ID.
Make up and high heels can go do one as I don't "do" either.
I sometimes do the sniff test to see if clothes are clean maybe that's just being a slob and not particularly a bloke thing lol
I have a sense of female self away from stereotypical things I like or don't like. Although maybe I shouldn't mention that as it's not a woman thing apparently. So nope, forget I said that.
I like sparkly glittery shiny things.

I'm a walking contradiction lol but my point is (shania earworm alert) I still feel like a woman even if I'm liking glitter or doing the obsessed with space thing or the fact I don't wear make up or high heels.
The sense of self is still there and it's not easy to put into words. It's just there.

Verbeena thats all lovely, but none of it makes you a woman. Or a man.

Are you a human adult female? If so, youre a woman.

Even if you ended up in a coma with no sense of self, you would still be a woman.

Our biology only matters when males are involved.

Raped. That is because of your biology.
Overlooked for a promotion because you are pregnant thats your biology.
Dying in a hut because you have your period and men put you there. Thats because of your biology.
Men demanding the world treat them like women. Women object as these are males. Told we are horrid evil people who only care about biology and we have a victim mentality because of it......i wonder why?

At the same time of sex segregated rest rooms, there were also sex segregated libraries, waiting rooms etc. We seem to have got rid of that now as men and woman can live side by side. The seperate spheres ideology of the 19th century is worth looking up.

Where is your evidence that bathrooms were originally segregated so that woman could use the loo without males present? Did you really think woman had this sort of influence then?

Verbeena thats all lovely, but none of it makes you a woman. Or a man

My point is also that if I have a sense of self that is woman, it stands to reason that transwomen may actually have that too.
I'm not dismissing them with a but it's not a thing. Because it is.

I do NOT like the word cis.
I am against Self ID.
Make up and high heels can go do one as I don't "do" either.
I sometimes do the sniff test to see if clothes are clean maybe that's just being a slob and not particularly a bloke thing lol
I have a sense of female self away from stereotypical things I like or don't like. Although maybe I shouldn't mention that as it's not a woman thing apparently. So nope, forget I said that.
I like sparkly glittery shiny things

^A woman or man could do all these things.

None of it is based on the biology of the person doing it. Talk about missing the point spectacularly.

I feel in tune with my body, I don’t need to think about why I’m a woman - because my biology, brain and heart all tie up to confirm I am one. I’m comfortable in my skin, with my genitals, with being a ‘she’. I hate the things that have happened to me because of my biology, I don’t want to change who I am because of it.

I have never been in a transgender persons mind, I don’t know how it feels when your brain and heart don’t tie up with what you look like. So I can’t tell you what it feels to be trans or what makes a woman, because I’m privileged enough to never have questioned it myself.

Told we are horrid evil people who only care about biology and we have a victim mentality because of it......
I've never said you're horrid or evil. The daft thing is I probably AGREE with a lot of what you're saying, but people don't see that!
(eg self ID)
Some HAVE said that women are only their biology though. Actual women (I'm obvs assuming actual women as much as you can be sure on here) which is pretty bloody insulting tbh.

I have never been in a transgender persons mind, I don’t know how it feels when your brain and heart don’t tie up with what you look like. So I can’t tell you what it feels to be trans or what makes a woman, because I’m privileged enough to never have questioned it myself.

But you could also say a man can't know what it feels like to be a woman because he isn't one.

Link for loos www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

Ive heard a few reasons why ladies loos were brought in

But making it a home from home is something ive never read

Except on mumsnet obviously...

This is one that mentions the need to shop, which was another reason

www.museumoflondon.org.uk/discover/womens-right-work-toilet-bathroom-victorian-london-wwi-factory-protest

A woman or man could do all these things

I KNOW they could! That's my point! Then you say I'm the one missing it?
It doesn't MATTER what you like. Whether it be pink and unicorns or mud and motorbikes.
Either can like either.
You can like a mixture of both, you'd still have the feeling of woman though, whether you're indulging the pink or the mud.
Your self is woman. It FEELS female. I'm not just biology.

If you think you're invincible and immune to attack you are more likely to become a victim.
Don’t agree with that at all, you’re more likely to be a victim if you’re unlucky enough to be targeted by a dangerous person. That is all there is too it.
There have been no recorded incidences of a transwomqn Attacking a woman in a restroom/changing room. There has been incidences of kids getting groomed by their teachers, beaten up by their peers and abused in daylight. I will not tell my kids to never speak to a teacher, avoid being near their school mates and never go out in daylight. You are creating a victim in a hypothetical situation and shouting as if it is a fact and incredibly dangerous, it is quite clear that this mentality creates a predator v victim situation and IMO it’s damaging to both sides.

Don’t agree with that at all, you’re more likely to be a victim if you’re unlucky enough to be targeted by a dangerous person. That is all there is too it.

Would you take a slightly longer route through a well-lit, populated street or choose the short cut through the dark alley? If you think you're immune to attack you might take the shorter route, but it's the one where you're more likely to be mugged/attacked.

There have been no recorded incidences of a transwomqn Attacking a woman in a restroom/changing room.

No idea whether that's true or not, but there have been incidences of men attacking women in those places.

There have been no recorded incidences of a transwomqn Attacking a woman in a restroom/changing room

How would you know, if it is the woman that would be told to remove themselves if they had been attacked or threatened? Or if the attack hadn't been accurately reported?

Verbeena your sex is just biology.

The rest, the sense of self etc, well thats personality. Your sex makes you female. The rest makes you, you.

There have been no recorded incidences of a transwomqn Attacking a woman in a restroom/changing room

Or if the crime was recorded as a female on female attack...

There has been incidences of kids getting groomed by their teachers, beaten up by their peers and abused in daylight. I will not tell my kids to never speak to a teacher, avoid being near their school mates and never go out in daylight.

But would you make sure that they knew what was appropriate and inappropriate behaviour from their teachers or other adults? Would you make sure that they felt comfortable about telling you if they were being bullied by their classmates?

Helping children to understand the world around them is not making them victims. Knowing that bad things can happen to anyone and how to keep themselves safe is not making them victims.

Verbeena your sex is just biology.

The rest, the sense of self etc, well thats personality.

Personality isn't biology too? It all emanates from the body.

The rest, the sense of self etc, well thats personality. Your sex makes you female. The rest makes you, you

Personality is different though. I have a woman self nothing to DO with my personality.
Why do you keep insisting that it's not a thing just because you don't recognise it as your experience?

I can't do much about the biology box, I have the body I was born with, the gender box however can feck right off.

Just seen this, sorry - if gender is an inate sense of female self, I have that too.
Which is where the problem lies as some don't want to know or acknowledge that.