AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

who the fuck used the cis word, I thought I had read the whole thread / missed that. Urgh hate that term with a passion. to whoever did use it /

I don't like that term either. Horrible word, I'm a woman, not cis.
If

No but you shouldn’t treat her as a victim in all aspects. I wouldn’t let a 15 year old boy walk home alone after midnight as they’re also likely to be mugged or attacked. Victim mentality is dangerous. I was mugged and sexually abused at 14 in daylight yards away from my front door - shall I tell my kids to never leave the house because of this?

What point are you trying to make here? Taking reasonable care to keep yourself safe is not 'victim mentality'. Both girls and boys might be attacked, mugged, raped. There are a couple of differences. A girl is more likely to be raped than a boy. Also a teenage boy or a man is more likely to be able to fight off his attacker because boys and men are stronger than girls and women. This is not a 'victim mentality', this is one of those inconvenient biological facts.

I really don't understand what your point is about victims.

Obviously you have now clarified its the feelz, so Karen White is living as a woman, while I am not. Which is an intresting viewpoint

No, I haven't clarified anything of the sort. I have SAID biology is a thing and important too, but I DO have a sense of self as well away from personality.
Oh, and I've never once said I'm not concerned about self ID. I am.
I just have a problem with saying er, no to ALL transwomen which some do.
I said I have a "feelz" as well as biology (your word). So it is a thing. I have it. So do others.

who the fuck used the cis word, I thought I had read the whole thread / missed that. Urgh hate that term with a passion. to whoever did use it

I was using it to indicate relative topology, in this case of gender identity, as in "cisalpine". Apologies if it offended you. Homogenous, homologous, aligning, whatever gets the point across is fine by me.

No but you shouldn’t treat her as a victim in all aspects. I wouldn’t let a 15 year old boy walk home alone after midnight as they’re also likely to be mugged or attacked. Victim mentality is dangerous. I was mugged and sexually abused at 14 in daylight yards away from my front door - shall I tell my kids to never leave the house because of this?

Perhaps a better question is should I tell my 15 year old daughter it's fine for her to undress in front of unknown adult males? But looking after ourselves is checks and balances, how can we keep ourselves safe in day to day life without being too limited? Some things are more risky than others in terms of likelihood and impact and you only have to look at a newspaper every day to see the male violence and abuse that women and girls face.

How do we say which transwomen are OK, and which are not?

I do kind of see your point, but I really do not agree. I think sex segregation is an all or nothing thing, we cant have sex segregation apart from a few.

My point about victims is that I don’t think it’s healthy to ingrain in our daughters that they are victims. Woman have as many rights as men now, yes we are more likely to be abused/raped and still face a lot of oppression, but we do not always have to be seen as a victim because of this - acting a victim creates a victim.

I want my daughter to be able to grow into who she wants to be, and never feel held back by her biology. However the new wave of feminists that are supposed to be helping to pave the way for her to do this are telling her that firstly all that matters is her biology and what’s in her pants but also that she should feel vulrenable in all situations because of it. I don’t like it: I don’t think it’s healthy.

Avoiding walking home alone late at night is not making woman the victim as you would say the same to both sexes, to take reasonable care in day to day life to avoid being in a bad situation.

Growing up hearing woman shouting that ‘transwoman should not be let in toilets because woman don’t want them there and we’re so vulrenable’ is painting woman to be so weak and helpless. Oh we couldn’t possiblely have someone that was once a man cus were defenceless woman, so let’s just tell these people to just get over it and bugger off.

As I say, please continue shouting from the rooftops as I am about the
Issues with self Id as this could be abused easily by genuine predators, those holding a GRC or those genuinely dysphoric - not so easily, and at the point that it moves over onto them, I’m out.

I was brought up in a rough place, i kept silent on things I didn’t agree with that I witnessed so My life didn’t get put in danger. I will not have my voice silenced here and I will say what I think is right. Even if you all disagree.

I think it’s unfair that you’re all tagging verbeena then have the cheek to say she’s making it about her. Get over yourselves.

Ta EarlyWalker it's easier out on the main boards but you usually don't get ANYONE on FWR piping up in agreement as they must have decided it's just not worth the hassle and they've given up trying to engage and gone home instead via the pub
Nobody engages. This. Is. Why. lol

I want my daughter to be able to grow into who she wants to be, and never feel held back by her biology. However the new wave of feminists that are supposed to be helping to pave the way for her to do this are telling her that firstly all that matters is her biology and what’s in her pants but also that she should feel vulrenable in all situations because of it. I don’t like it: I don’t think it’s healthy.

Feminists are not saying anything any different from any other women as far as I can tell, just the usual boring keeping ourselves safe stuff that it would be negligent not to mention.

Nobody engages. This. Is. Why. lol

Verbeena you have pages of people engaging. I don’t know what you want!!

EarlyWalker when my daughter encounters a male in the changing rooms, how does she know if that is someone who self IDs as a woman or someone with a GRC?

Also, would a young girl not wanting to undress in front of that male be, in your opinion, acting like a victim?

I was supporting what you were saying about your sense of self Verbeena

Verbeena you have pages of people engaging. I don’t know what you want!

Omigod. That's not what I'm saying < head bang> I want people engaging! Discussion (actual discussion) is good. People saying to the "other view" though that they're wrong, refuse to see that others experience life different to themselves, and usually ridicule them in the process - not OK!
Presuming that's what EarlyWalker meant too.

I was supporting what you were saying about your sense of self Verbeena

Ta, can I give flowers I've had a wine lol

Thank you, I can't say I actually got it right but I was listening and trying to understand!

Verbeena you seem to have a very prescriptive view of how people should be allowed to discuss.

*EarlyWalker when my daughter encounters a male in the changing rooms, how does she know if that is someone who self IDs as a woman or someone with a GRC?

Also, would a young girl not wanting to undress in front of that male be, in your opinion, acting like a victim?*

How do you know the woman next to you isn’t a child abuser? As I said upthread.m, it is impossible to know who is genuine and who is not, you just have to put your faith In the system. My personal opinion is that anyone who retains a penis but gets changed in an open plan woman’s changing room and shows off said penis, is not a nice person and I would report them. Genuine dysphoric people feel so uncomfortable (and usually disgusted) in their own skin, they would be unlikely to want to flash it to a room.

Everyone has the right to say no, if you feel uncomfortable in a situation you also have the right to exit that situation. No one is forcing you to do anything. Some Muslim woman I know would not get changed openly in the same room as a lesbian, I don’t agree with their view but if they want to leave it is not my place to question them as that is their issue.

So why do we segregate sexes at all?

Verbeena you seem to have a very prescriptive view of how people should be allowed to discuss

How so? There's good discussion on here when both sides are allowed to speak (like the other thread) Presumably OP thought so too to start it in the first place.
This thread though not so much as it pretty much descended into a dismissive pile on from the get go.

Yes verbeena it was. And I know what you mean, I’m often a lone voice on FWR too. It makes you question yourself completely and then give up thinking what’s the point. It’s refreshign when it moves onto another board and you’re not so alone! also agree about the wine, I’ve discovered once I’ve consumed too much I seem to become incapable of using MN functions such as bolding. Will this be in italics? Who knows!

Do lesbiens wear a sign?
Is it as obvious as say a penis?

Muslim women are not stupid.

Statistiacally, males commit 98% of sexual abuse. So the chamces of the man next to you being a child abuser are far higher.

Im also quite shocked at what you suggest
Women and girls who dont like sharing with males should just not use public spaces.

How do you square that with a policy of equality and inclusion?

So why do we segregate sexes at all?
Well, historically only men were allowed bathrooms. Woman had to drop and squat or hold it. Then in the Victorian era woman started working (horray!) and as the woman’s place was the house (of course!) they thought they’d create them a homely ‘home from home’ environment in a woman’s restroom and it all went from there really.

Yayy you italliced, it worked lol

My point about victims is that I don’t think it’s healthy to ingrain in our daughters that they are victims.

Has anyone actually suggested doing this, EarlyWalker? You seem to be responding to an issue that you have raised yourself. I would agree with this statement, but I don't know why you have decided to make it on this thread. It doesn't seem to fit with what the thread is about.