AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

Feminism is for all females.

But Verbeena the only person who has ever mentioned reducing women to body parts, is you

Women have female biology. Males do not. Acknowledging this fact is not reducing us to our body parts.

What is this 'sense of self' and how can it know anything? Where does it reside, anatomically?

Given that nobody has yet unravelled the mystery of consciousness it seems unfair to expect VerbeenaBeeks or trans people to explain it to everyone's satisfaction.

How can a brain - which is made of the same cells containing the same chromosomes as the rest of the body, which has developed in response to stimuli received through the sexed body (and it the case of gendered socialisation, received because of the sexed body) - how can that brain know something it has no actual experience of? Even a perceived understanding of the opposite sex is perceived through your sexed body and processed through your sexed brain. The brain is a part of our anatomy, not a floating, esoteric 'sense'.

I'm guessing hormones.

Because I see the aim is to change that fact, and we can’t do so if we just keep bleating on that all we are is a vagina and we’re such victims because of it. We’ve come a long way, I don’t like the constant trying to set us back by treating us all as victims.

Well said, have a differing viewpoint as a woman and you either don't know any better (patronising) or are told you're a vulnerable victim, or just your body bits.
Er, no.

But Verbeena the only person who has ever mentioned reducing women to body parts, is you

Eh? Wha? How are you even getting to that? Just... wha?

I just.... as I said earlier in the thread, there's just no fucking point,is there?
Have a go, Verbeena! Just try, do it.Ah, g'wan. G'wan, g'wan, g'wan.
Just..... I'm off to refill my wine glass, it'll make more sense than some of you lot lol.

I am done with the Verbeena show.

Goodnight to all the adult human females

I don’t like the constant trying to set us back by treating us all as victims.

Should I tell my 15 year old DD that it's fine for her to walk home alone after midnight from her party tonight because we are not victims?

Verbeena show? Stop bloody asking me questions then if you don't want them answered!
I'm trying to answer them! Are they rhetorical, are we not meant to answer them, or if we do, they're meant to be answered "right?"
THIS is why people give up lol, it is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

Oh go on then, find ONE post, just one, from anyone who said that women should only be defined by their biology.

Just one.

Because all I saw was women mentioning biology and you jumping all over them demanding they not define women by biology.

She shouldnt need a key Everard only victims lock their doors!

However, firstly - gender stereotypes do exist so we can’t really go down the route of getting rid of it, as much as that would be great.

But society does change. Our culture does change over time. Sixty or seventy years ago it was unthinkable that gay people would be accepted in society as who they were, much less be able to get married to each other. And yet here we are, because society changed.

It was unacceptable for women to wear trousers up until about 100 years ago in much of Europe and North America. Now they are normal acceptable clothing for women since society has changed.

Why then is it so unthinkable that we could do away with gender stereotypes altogether? We were well on the way to that in the 70s and 80s and now we seem to have gone back to a 40s or 50s idea of gender stereotypes.

She shouldnt need a key Everard only victims lock their doors!

Ha, she hasn't taken a key, that would involve way too much practical thought for a teenager

Yeah, Old it’s interesting isn’t it that it is demanded we accept the definition of woman change to include men, but when we suggest gender stereotypes should be disbanded there is a sharp intake of breath and a response of “but it is how it is”

Oh go on then, find ONE post, just one, from anyone who said that women should only be defined by their biology

I was referring to somebody ON THIS THREAD who said that for them being a woman is just about their biological bits, nothing else.
They know they're a woman because they have boobies and vagina.
Others agreed, that's all it is for them too. Being boobies and vagina and all the woman bits. That's what a woman is. Nothing else apparently.
I said for me, it's not just that.
It's THERE on the thread. It wasn't me who said it.
There's 21 pages now. I'm seriously not trailing through for another "ha gotcha or yeah but no but that's not a woman thing tho so stop saying it is."

Because all I saw was women mentioning biology and you jumping all over them demanding they not define women by biology

So you did see the posts then. I didn't demand anything of the sort, interesting that's all you take away from what people are saying though.
You can't see.
I gave MY EXPERIENCE and was told it wasn't right.

Is it so hard to accept that gender identity might manifest on a scale from 0 to Very Prominent and other people do have a perceptible sense of their gender identity, be it cis (eg Shania) or trans?
I think you're quoting me, but from a post where I already agreed some people have a feeling of gender identity. I asked if OP could acknowledge that many of us just don't. Because OP was talking about sex and gender as if everyone has one of each, and I don't think that's the case.

What I would like to talk about is where people get their sense of gendered identity from. Because internal feelings don't come with labels in the English language, if a child has built an identity that says they're a boy when actually they're a girl, that comes from somewhere, and where it comes from is most likely stereotypes.

Our sense of identity is built over the years from interactions with our environment. It can take wrong turnings, like Rachel Dolezal's feeling of being black or an anorexic's feeling of being fat. It can change when things in our environment change, like an accident making an able bodied person into a disabled person - they can identify as still able bodied all they like, it doesn't take away their disability. Or having a child turning us into a parent. Can any parents here honestly say that the birth of their first child didn't change their self image? Or therapy helping an anxious person to become more self confident.

Self image exists, it is complex and influenced by many things. It doesn't define reality.

The transman I know didn’t transition because of sterotypes and it won’t address the issue of current transgender people.

The OP said:

At the end of the day I couldn't have gender dysphoria if we could eliminate gender stereotyping.

So for some people, EarlyWalker, stereotypes are the main or the only issue.

Goodnight to all the adult human females

g'nite.

What was said, possibly by me, was that the only way I have ever felt I was living as a woman rather than just living, was when doing something that directly impacted my life as a result of my female biology. I said that because you had used the phrase living as a woman and I was rather confused by what you meant.

Obviously you have now clarified its the feelz, so Karen White is living as a woman, while I am not. Which is an intresting viewpoint.

Did I say I was just a walking womb, as you went on to suggest? No. I havent got a womb, ffs.

Maybe work on the reading comprehension.

Obviously you have now clarified its the feelz, so Karen White is living as a woman, while I am not. Which is an intresting viewpoint.
Ha, it is isn't it.

Should I tell my 15 year old DD that it's fine for her to walk home alone after midnight from her party tonight because we are not victims?

No but you shouldn’t treat her as a victim in all aspects. I wouldn’t let a 15 year old boy walk home alone after midnight as they’re also likely to be mugged or attacked. Victim mentality is dangerous. I was mugged and sexually abused at 14 in daylight yards away from my front door - shall I tell my kids to never leave the house because of this?

I think it’s unfair that you’re all tagging verbeena then have the cheek to say she’s making it about her. Get over yourselves.

-So for some people, EarlyWalker, stereotypes are the main or the only issue.

I’m not denying it’s an issue for some, in the same post I said that is what the OP said. But it’s not the issue for all.

I do worry that if I was growing up now, would society have pushed me to conform by becoming male?? The current stereotypes are dangerous.

Totally agree with this. The combination of ever more rigid stereotypes and teaching children in school that they can change sex is likely to lead to disaster.

The definition of woman is adult human female. The definition of female is biological.

That is not the same as “being defined by biology”.

I am defined by
My son
My job
My friends
My writing
My running
My taste in books
My love for adventures
My determination to laugh
My life experience so far

My biology defines me also
Periods
Pregnancy
Hormones
Breastfeeding

And possibly a few other things but you get the idea..

I don't think anyone can really know how they would feel in the absence of stereotypes having grown up surrounded by them.

Goodnight to all the adult human females

Goodnight