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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

999 replies

wrexhamtrans · 17/11/2018 07:36

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

  1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
  2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
  3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

OP posts:
EarlyWalker · 17/11/2018 21:37

Stop *eveyone being transgender

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 21:38

Woman is a biological reality, not an act one can perform

People are TELLING you that for them, a sense of being a woman IS a thing.
What is it then, if it's not being told you're womanning wrong if you say hang on a minute, I am not just biology thanks?
For people to say yeah but no but you ARE.

EarlyWalker · 17/11/2018 21:39

It's quite interesting to me that on another thread yesterday OP posted and was praised by quite a few GC posters as being a breath of fresh air etc and then today she's been entirely rounded on. Now there's another trans poster, criticising OP, who receives this welcome

Was about to post the Same. On the other thread, GC people kept telling us to ‘listen to the real life transwoman’

everydayunicorns · 17/11/2018 21:41

@Weetabixandshreddies I found the OP original post really interesting, I like to hear others viewpoints, and in the beginning the discussion was really informative - and then it descended. As someone who doesn't normally join in these discussions (as I'm always on the way wrong side - too in the middle). I have found this an interesting thread in parts of it. I for one appreciated the OP for starting what should have been a good discussion.

Weetabixandshreddies · 17/11/2018 21:41

EverardDigby

Thank you for answering because it's people in your situation who I think are being ignored by people calling for biological sex to over ride everything. To me, that doesn't seem to be the answer. It doesn't make sense to say trans women can't because they were born male and sex can't be changed but equally say to a trans man you look like a man so you can't even though you were born female because gender matters.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 17/11/2018 21:41

What is this 'sense of self' and how can it know anything? Where does it reside, anatomically? How can a brain - which is made of the same cells containing the same chromosomes as the rest of the body, which has developed in response to stimuli received through the sexed body (and it the case of gendered socialisation, received because of the sexed body) - how can that brain know something it has no actual experience of? Even a perceived understanding of the opposite sex is perceived through your sexed body and processed through your sexed brain. The brain is a part of our anatomy, not a floating, esoteric 'sense'.

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 21:43

@VerbeenaBeeks I am also womanning wrong, interestingly you seem to get the flack for quoting my posts, but I seem to be allowed or is it ignored ? But feck that

Lol, maybe it's because they're sick of seeing my mush on here as I'm not shy to disagree?
It's noootttt liked if you do dat. Grin

Hyppolyta · 17/11/2018 21:43

So to you Verbeena living as a woman is simply feeling as a woman.

This feeling is indescribable, unique to each individual and felt by some males and some females.

Im still confused about how you think that feeling is what makes a woman, tbh.

EarlyWalker · 17/11/2018 21:43

if it's not being told you're womanning wrong if you say hang on a minute, I am not just biology thanks?
Agree verbeena. I’m more than my vagina tells me to be. I’m more than a breast feeder and a womb bearer. I am a woman in my heart. The key aim of feminism is to not disadvantage us because of our sex, but you all seem intent on defining us by our sex? How is that helping woman?

CosmicCanary · 17/11/2018 21:44

I dont know what womaning is.

I am shit at cleaning.
I dont do crafts/hobbies.
I like dresses and trousers.
I wear make up some days but not others.
I shave my legs when i have to.
I have a tash and nipple hair.

Does any of the above make me a woman or not a woman?

I was born female.
I am now an adult.

That is what makes me a woman.

EverardDigby · 17/11/2018 21:45

I think I have a sense I am a woman, but it only goes as far as I have female biology and people treat me as a woman (because of my female biology) and also I have been left by men to bring up a child alone and look after ageing parents alone. And people used to think I was a secretary when I was a senior manager!

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 21:46

What is this 'sense of self'

I've tried to explain. How do you explain it though satisfactorily? It just is (somebody else have a go lol) although I bet if someone does that answer won't be satisfactory either or will be told it's not a thing, you're just your biology.

woollyheart · 17/11/2018 21:47

If instead of allowing transgender people to appropriate protected women's areas, such as women's sport, toilets and jobs, we looked at it the other way.

So, instead of having sport for men and sport for women, we had 'open' sport (open for absolutely all adults) and 'women's' sport (only women born as women and meeting criteria as a woman now).

Would men be happy with their sporting arenas suddenly being made available to everyone?

I don't think they would be very happy. In spite of the fact that they would probably not be very disadvantaged by this, because elite men would still be likely to win all the 'open' competitions.

Weetabixandshreddies · 17/11/2018 21:48

everydayunicorns

Me too everyday. The thread yesterday was interesting too. Just the treatment of the OP between yesterday and today is very different.

ALittleBitofVitriol

Where do memories, or personality or the ability to think about what I need to do next week reside anatomically in the brain?

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 21:49

The key aim of feminism is to not disadvantage us because of our sex, but you all seem intent on defining us by our sex? How is that helping woman?

Exactly! You're defined by your body functions only. Feminism saying you're just your biology.No, I'm not, that's pretty offensive actually! Bog off with that lol

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 17/11/2018 21:49

Agree verbeena. I’m more than my vagina tells me to be. I’m more than a breast feeder and a womb bearer. I am a woman in my heart. The key aim of feminism is to not disadvantage us because of our sex, but you all seem intent on defining us by our sex? How is that helping woman?

We have sex segregation for a reason. No women just thinks of themselves as walking body parts, but to the men that sexually harrass, assault and rape us, that's all we are.

Hyppolyta · 17/11/2018 21:49

From your descriptions, it sounds like your feelings of "woman" (knowing in your heart etc) are comparible to that of a soul.

SmileEachDay · 17/11/2018 21:50

Feminism says we are our biology and we are subject to all manner of oppression because of that biology, actually.

Weetabixandshreddies · 17/11/2018 21:53

What is this 'sense of self'
This is a very well recognised psychological term. It's not just something we made up tonight for shits and giggles.

If you were really interested you could read up about it.

Hyppolyta · 17/11/2018 21:53

I actually quite this quite funny, maybe I should have refused chemo because my female biology should not have defined me!

Although when you think of how many women will be tortured and killed, today, because 9f their female biology it stops being funny.

Maybe Verbeena and earlywalker can go have a chat with the people bleeding to death in menstrual huts and tell them to stop defining themselves by their biology.

EarlyWalker · 17/11/2018 21:55

Feminism says we are our biology and we are subject to all manner of oppression because of that biology, actually.

I said the aim of feminism, are you saying the aim of feminism is to moan that we’re disadvantaged because of our body? Because I see the aim is to change that fact, and we can’t do so if we just keep bleating on that all we are is a vagina and we’re such victims because of it. We’ve come a long way, I don’t like the constant trying to set us back by treating us all as victims.

EverardDigby · 17/11/2018 21:55

Exactly! You're defined by your body functions only. Feminism saying you're just your biology.No, I'm not, that's pretty offensive actually! Bog off with that lol

Isn't feminism saying exactly the opposite? Whilst recognising that we are at risk of sexual assault because of our biology or already are damaged by male violence?

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 21:55

Feminism says we are our biology and we are subject to all manner of oppression because of that biology, actually

Feminism is about being for all women and not just a select few.

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 21:59

I actually quite this quite funny, maybe I should have refused chemo because my female biology should not have defined me!

Who on earth has said anything like that? You obviously need treatment for biological women's ailments. Your body is taken into account then, obviously.
To say that's all it is to others isn't on though. I'm not just boobs and the whole downstairs bit. I'm woman in self as well. (Nothing to do with personality.)
It's a thing just like biology is.

SmileEachDay · 17/11/2018 22:00

I accept all women in my feminism.

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