AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

I'm not ON about personality, why can't you see that? Or at least accept that for me, I have a sense of female self?

Is this more like a belief in god, perhaps? People I know who are devout Christians, say that they know god exists. I think I can understand this better if I assume that your sense of a female self is similar to their belief in god. There is no scientific basis for it, or anything that can be measured or discerned in an objective way, but for you it is real. Does that sound about right to you?

The notion of gender identity seems to me to have many parallels with religious belief.

@ShotsFired who the fuck used the cis word, I thought I had read the whole thread / missed that. Urgh hate that term with a passion. to whoever did use it / it really is a slur, a misogynistic patriarchal term used to denigrate and subjugate women.

FLOUNCE

Here, for example, is WrexhamTrans complaining and throwing their weight around

Then you (actual you and general you)wonder why (your words) people "flounce?"
OP didn't do anything of the sort like complain and throw her weight around. She put her point across well, has been engaging well on the thread with her experience.
Why the fuck should she have to put up with this shit? I don't blame her if she's "flounced" (also known as do you know what, I don't feel up to this. Not necessarily flounce off in a huff.)
Even ME as a biological woman is getting told I'm womanning wrong.
Fuck that.
Must be so much worse as a transwoman, must be relentless to have it day in day out either in RL or on here.

No, a testosterone poisoned, mutilated clit is not a penis I’ll tell him to put that on his tinder, thanks love for your helpful insight.

My fear is that their drive for full acceptence means women and children end up at the bottom if the pile

Fully understand your point here, I won’t argue it. However what I will say, is if you disagree with full acceptance, I don’t believe the answer is full oppression.

What do you think of the view that if we did not have gender stereotypes that people wouldn't have gender dysphoria because there would be no stereotypes to conform to or not
I read OPs points on these and did find them interesting, I think there’s a sense of wanting to be conform into what we should be in all of us. However, firstly - gender stereotypes do exist so we can’t really go down the route of getting rid of it, as much as that would be great. But also, As an example I don’t know what goes on in a gay persons brain as I’m gay. Our biology tells us to be attracted to people and have sex in order to reproduce, so biologically speaking - it doesn’t make sense for people to be gay. However a number of individuals are, I would never doubt them or think they’re just trying to piss of Jesus or whatever.

as im not gay, sorry that made no sense! I missed the vital not*

Is this more like a belief in god, perhaps? People I know who are devout Christians, say that they know god exists. I think I can understand this better if I assume that your sense of a female self is similar to their belief in god. There is no scientific basis for it, or anything that can be measured or discerned in an objective way, but for you it is real. Does that sound about right to you?

I think it's just a sense of having a female body and occupying that female body and the socialisation that comes with it. How can we not have a sense of being female with all the biological experiences it brings and our life of people reacting to that? We may reject gender stereotypes but our physicality and day to day lives reinforce our femaleness (but not femininity). I think it's fine to acknowledge this and still say men cannot have this feeling because they do not occupy a female body.

ShotsFired

No I don't buy the fact that the reason MtF trans women aren't wanted in women's spaces is because men as a class pose a danger to women. Because if that's the case then FtM trans men would be equally unwanted. Because they would appear as belonging to the class that pose the threat to women. So to me it makes no sense to say that you don't want someone who looks like a woman but was born a male to have access to female spaces because of a potential threat but it's fine for someone who looks exactly male if they were born female?

And the smear test isn't a gotcha. It's because I genuinely don't understand. Admittedly I have no issue with either a man or a woman doing mine and I know that is my choice and others are free to make their choice but if I definitely did not want a man to do it then that would mean someone who looked like a man wouldn t it?

If you worry that you wouldn't want a trans woman doing it because they were born a male then equally a trans man could do it because they were born a female? Even if they looked exactly like a man?

@VerbeenaBeeks I am also womanning wrong, interestingly you seem to get the flack for quoting my posts, but I seem to be allowed or is it ignored ? But feck that 😂😱
Can't have more than one dissenter amongst this lot, makes it look like they have absolute agreement of all women - even when they don't.

And when they tell you they are a woman, what then?

I would still see them as a man.

Of course we can go down the route of getting rid of gender stereotypes!

I don’t believe the answer is full oppression.

Where did I say it was?

See you believe because I am of the view that humans cannot change sex and that TW are not women or TM are not men that I want to oppress transpeople?

I dont.

I want them to find their place in the world that does not put others at genuine risk but allows them the same freedom as all other males and females.

Should allowences/consessions be made? A few years ago I would have said yes however thanks to TRAS pushing for every Tom, Dick and Harry to be seen as a women and have access to female only spaces....that bridge for me has been burned.

Dear @Ripple

Thank you for the cracking post from a transgender person with whom we can actually start the refreshing and respectful debate. You come from a place I can support, unequivocally, when you say:

Women are not the problem here. Men are. And I long ago realised that avoiding men and encroaching upon women isn't the solution to that problem

There is a need to prevent men from threatening, humiliating, mocking and beating up members of their own sex, whether gay or transgender. We could have started a very good discussion about the way forward at this point.

But it didn't go that way. We kicked off, big style, when they demanded that we submitted quietly to the notion that some men could also be actual women and so were entitled to our services, jobs, awards, sports, facilities and spaces. Women will never, ever accept that proposition. A respectful discussion with women has to start from the acknowledgement that "transwomen are men - get over it" (in the style of Stonewall)

Nice hearing from you @Ripple - especially for your insightful analysis of the OP.

However, firstly - gender stereotypes do exist so we can’t really go down the route of getting rid of it, as much as that would be great.

Why not?

I have tried to explain multiple times Weetabix. I'm either not explaining clearly enough, or you are wilfully determined not to see the POV. Either way we're getting nowhere so I shall wish you a pleasant evening and go and see what else is happening on the internet tonight!

Oh drop the hyperbole, its like having a discussion with my teen.

No one has been told they are womaning wrong.

You have been told the is no way to feel womaning or to live as a woman.

Woman is a biological reality, not an act one can perform.

If you worry that you wouldn't want a trans woman doing it because they were born a male then equally a trans man could do it because they were born a female? Even if they looked exactly like a man?

I don't want anyone who appears to be male doing my smear test whether that's a biological man, a trans man who passes (which they tend to more often than trans women IME) or a trans woman who doesn't. All would trigger my PTSD.

Ripple thanks from me too for your post!

Also agree that was a brilliant post from Ripple (that I missed, sorry!)

Id be intrested in hearing what kind of solution you think would be best for people in your position with regards to public spaces, if you had any ideas?

If a transman passes, who would know that they don't belong in the men's loos?

Is the opposite also true?

Of course - I'd rather they weren't there for safety reasons, but if they behave appropriately, how would I know?
But we not talking photoshopped Instagram posts passing, we are talking real life in a confined space passing. Male transpeople need to understand that when they don't pass, they are likely to cause distress to to the women and girls that are present. I haven't seen much evidence that many male transsexuals take this into consideration. Women and girls don't see their gender identity or their dysphoria, they see male.

It's quite interesting to me that on another thread yesterday OP posted and was praised by quite a few GC posters as being a breath of fresh air etc and then today she's been entirely rounded on. Now there's another trans poster, criticising OP, who receives this welcome

Thank you for the cracking post from a transgender person with whom we can actually start the refreshing and respectful debate.

Just interested, if you had the male body would you feel like you would need to use female toilets because of your female feelings?

I don't know, I've never really felt the need to think about it. Body, knows it's a woman. Sense of self, knows it's a woman.
Growing up, why would I want to go in the males? I'd know I wasn't a male! They're not like me, they're male, I know I'm not.
Thinking aloud, apologies if that doesn't make any sense lol

EarlyWalker
Tell her whatever you want, dear. I think it's unwise to lie about such things.

@TheMythOfFingerprints yes please to getting rid of gender stereotypes. Quite frankly fed up of them. I was very fortunate to grow up with awesome parents who didn't make me conform. I am very much a woman, but get my hair cut at a barbers, don't like makeup, don't act "girlie" enough for some. Been asked repeatedly in my youth if I was a boy or if I was gay. I'm neither I am just who I am, and I am bringing my DCs up to be whoever they want to be. I did struggle with the barbie phase, new one on me / but they are who they are.

I do worry that if I was growing up now, would society have pushed me to conform by becoming male?? The current stereotypes are dangerous.

why can’t we get rid of gender stereotypes
Firstly, I don’t think this would stop anyone being transgender. Secondly I think again it is a problem that mainly lies with men. I don’t think woman care as much about sterotypes. We can’t make men be ‘nicer’ we can educate and hope for the best, but I don’t think we alone can diminish all stereotypes. At school, the feminine men were often bullied or called ‘fggots or similar, beaten up behind the bins etc,. I don’t think we can remove hundreds of years worth of social conditioning in our lifetimes, though it’s obviously great to try and keep fighting it.

I don’t think ‘just removing stereotypes’ is a suitable argument in any trans debate. The transman I know didn’t transition because of sterotypes and it won’t address the issue of current transgender people.

1. Please don't "cis" people here/in this context - it is seen as a slur/offensive.

Homogeneous or heterogenous, then.

2. Just because you or someone else feels they have a gender identity, does not give you the right to classify me or anyone else on the same scale.

You've just assumed there that I feel a gender identity. I don't. I'm just not assuming that something doesn't exist just because I haven't experienced it myself.

Your 'identity' is meaningless as any form of comparison or "rating" of what makes a woman or not.

I'm not talking about that, I'm just talking about the existence of gender identity. I've never experienced a longing for children or a husband or sailing the Pacific, either, but I'm not so blinkered as to presume that therefore it doesn't exist.