AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

I'd be much happier to share toilets (for instance) with a trans man than a trans woman, they would understand about periods, likely to be nearer my size and weight and statistically far less likely to harm me. Women can have beards and muscles even without taking T.

Yelling?

Are people doing that caps lock thing again?

I got told off for using it and i was just doing it for emphasis, i need to remember to bold instead

Agree, and to the last bit, - same! Feck off box.

I can't do much about the biology box, I have the body I was born with, the gender box however can feck right off.

ut that won't be the choice will it? We won't select on a case by case basis. It will be all trans women do this, all trans men do that

Yep

So some people would like transwomen in the gents and transmen in the ladies

Seems fair enough...ive only ever seen people be consistent on this issue

If men have a problem with who uses their facilities, it's up to them to complain.

Can you not see what will happen? If campaigners are successful in banning trans women from women's spaces by law the law will apply to trans men equally or men will launch their own campaign to ban trans men or trans men themselves will decide that they don't want to go into the men's toilets and so will say that they should have the same rights as trans women ie to use the facility of their birth sex.

Whatever the result will be the same. Potentially very masculine looking people, possibly with higher levels of testosterone, will be in the female changing room.

wrexham on another thread, said they uses the disabled toilets, and does not like to encroach on women's spaces, and has respected that.

Except that as a disabled woman, with a disabled daughter, who knows only too well that there is a lack of adequate disabled facilities I don't really see this as a solution either. And people who need to use disabled loos often have specific reasons for needing to use them quickly. I don't begrudge anyone the right to have a pee but if it always has to be at the expense of someone else's comfort for God's sake let's look for an actual solution.

men will launch their own campaign to ban trans men

I wonder how many men do request men-only services for example for healthcare? I'd imagine it's some but nowhere near as often as women.

Potentially very masculine looking people, possibly with higher levels of testosterone, will be in the female changing room.

As opposed to having trans women in the female changing room ... very masculine looking people, possibly with higher levels of testosterone.

I'd be much happier to share toilets (for instance) with a trans man than a trans woman, they would understand about periods, likely to be nearer my size and weight and statistically far less likely to harm me

Well you can't speak for all women. A lot of trans men look like men. For women who do not want to be around men that is going to be impossible.

Muslim women are constantly used on here as an example. Do you think that Muslim women will be able to use toilets or changing rooms with someone that looks exactly like a man? The answer is no. All that will be considered will be the outward physical appearance, not their chromosomes or birth genitalia but just their outward physical appearance which will appear to be male.

If we're going to have masculine looking people in the changing rooms I'd rather they were female.

So Verbeena Im guessing you also now agree the phrase living as a woman is ridiculous and wont be using it again. None of us want to be in that "living as a woman" box, and we are quite sick of males saying it to pretend they are real women too.

As for the transman issue, I think the only real answer is fpr them to campaign for the spaces they feel they need.

If that is male gendered spaces thats fine, as long as its an addition and not a replacement of existing facilities.

I'd be much happier to share toilets (for instance) with a trans man than a trans woman, they would understand about periods, likely to be nearer my size and weight and statistically far less likely to harm me

To be fair they did explain that they were entitled to use the disabled toilets for reasons entirely separate to their trans status. The OP wasn't just using the disabled toilets rather than choosing either the men's or ladies toilet.

weetabix Muslim women can share spaces with females on hormones and women with facial hair.

I wonder how many men do request men-only services for example for healthcare? I'd imagine it's some but nowhere near as often as women.

I used to work on a male ward. A lot of men requested a male nurse to provide personal care or to catheterise for example. The difference being that there weren't many male nurses and so often this wasn't an option or they weren't taken very seriously.

If campaigners are successful

If campaigners are successful there will be third spaces provided for trans/non binary/any other people not comfortable to use the spaces for their birth sex, and most discussion is around these spaces being closed single units like disabled loos are, to ensure privacy, safety and dignity.

Also see the Guardian's article this week where a writer described ring fencing single sex provision, services and funding alongside single gender provision. Choice and everyone's needs met. It doesn't need to be framed as win/lose. Or that if women stand up against sharing spaces with men they'll just get masculine looking women in their spaces which is for some reason supposed to be a problem - it never has been before? What is the problem with women having any form of gender expression?

Hyppolyta

You are being very disingenuous. If I see someone at the shops - full beard, balding, muscly, wearing men's clothes - I assume they are male. I wouldn't go and ask them to show me their genitals or to take a DNA test so that I could verify their sex. I can't imagine a Muslim woman looking at a male looking person and thinking " aah, chances are that he's a trans man so born female".

So Verbeena Im guessing you also now agree the phrase living as a woman is ridiculous and wont be using it again. None of us want to be in that "living as a woman" box, and we are quite sick of males saying it to pretend they are real women too.

Why? No, I don't agree as some on this thread are saying it's just about biology. It's their body that makes them woman. Nothing else.
Which is kind of insulting reducing to just the fact babies.
I'm more than that. My brain KNOWS I'm female. Not kittens and knitting. I have a sense of self that is very much female.
God knows what that feels like if you don't match up.

You are being very disingenuous. If I see someone at the shops - full beard, balding, muscly, wearing men's clothes - I assume they are male. I wouldn't go and ask them to show me their genitals or to take a DNA test so that I could verify their sex. I can't imagine a Muslim woman looking at a male looking person and thinking " aah, chances are that he's a trans man so born female"

Exactly, how does that work, then? Check everyone's pants contents to make sure?

So fpr the umpteenth time, when you described a male as having lived as a woman what did you mean by that?

That he felt as a woman?

masculine looking women in their spaces which is for some reason supposed to be a problem - it never has been before? What is the problem with women having any form of gender expression?

Because I have never been using the toilet or a changing room and have a masculine looking person with a beard sharing them with me.

Nothing wrong with masculine looking women but that isn't trans men. One is a woman wearing more typically men's clothes the other is a transsexual who has changed their gender.

No, I don't agree as some on this thread are saying it's just about biology. It's their body that makes them woman. Nothing else.
Which is kind of insulting reducing to just the fact babies.

No, it’s saying that these are things that only females bodies do. Our sex is pretty irrelevant in matters where biology isn’t different e.g. going about most of our lives.

So fpr the umpteenth time, when you described a male as having lived as a woman what did you mean by that? That he felt as a woman?

OK, genuinely not trying to be daft, but which bit do you mean? Where did I say that quote?
It's a long thread now with the constant define woman I did but I'll answer if I know which bit you mean.

Hyppolyta

Assuming that you are a woman, how do you know that you are a woman?

One is a woman wearing more typically men's clothes the other is a transsexual who has changed their gender.

What do you understand by someone 'changing their gender'? We are told that gender is innate.

No, it’s saying that these are things that only females bodies do

I'm not disputing that, yes, only biological female bodies can do that, it's a no brainer.
What about the fact that I have a sense of self of being a woman as well though?