AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

I'm more than that. My brain KNOWS I'm female. Not kittens and knitting. I have a sense of self that is very much female.

I get what you're saying I think, which is basically that you don't feel a disconnect with your body. Some people do feel a disconnect with their body and strongly feel something is wrong, but I don't really know where that leads us, because the truth is they still have their sexed body. Just because they don't feel right it doesn't make them the other sex. And there are campaigns to not make this about gender dysphoria at all, so what are people's basis for feeling like a woman if not based around the body?

Because I have a biologically fenale body.

I have menstruated, been pregnant, breastfed, had cervical cancer and a hysterectomy.

My female biology nearly killed me. Female biology has and contonues to kill women.

It in no ways defines us, but it damn well exists.

One is a woman wearing more typically men's clothes the other is a transsexual who has changed their gender

Soooooo....

Nope ive got nothing

What about the fact that I have a sense of self of being a woman as well though?

That's nice for you - if you're happy with that then great! I don't have that sense and I'm happy with that. Where's the problem?

A body is just a body, it matters in some areas that my body is fundamentally different from males, in others it really doesn't.

Do you think it’s healthy for our daughters to see woman painted as a victim all the time? Do you think it’s healthy for them to see us alienate and oppress those that we do not understand? Without any consideration? No debate is happening on both sides, you certainly won’t entertain any viewpoint that any transwoman can use facilities, even if they have no penis and have lived as a woman for 50 years. No Well said, @Earlywalker! Completely agree, from one of those who are  at being painted as a victim or vulnerable little girly all the time too. (Have atted you purely so you see and don't miss, tell me if you're one who doesn't like it and I won't in future  )

This was your post from 17:57 Verbeena, and I apologise as on re-reading it wasnt your phrase youve simply quoted it and agreed with it.

However as none if us seem to be in agreement as what living as a woman means, I still dont feel claiming to have done so qualifies a male to use female spaces.

I get what you're saying I think, which is basically that you don't feel a disconnect with your body. Some people do feel a disconnect with their body and strongly feel something is wrong, but I don't really know where that leads us, because the truth is they still have their sexed body

Yeah, basically saying that. I don't feel a disconnect. Even when I was a kid and preferred climbing trees/getting muddy and couldn't stand pink and thought dolls were boring (give me the planes or astronaut stuff any day, still do) I KNEW I was female.
Having a male body would have terrified me as it wasn't me. I'd have been like but I'm a girl!
love male bits now but just not as part of me lol

no males in our prisons..... In the absence of an alternative where else would you put me as a biological male, gender female with breasts?

In the male estate, along with all the males who (for a variety of reasons) have breasts.

I am a natal female, without a female gender, with breasts smaller than most men's. What prison should I go to?

My friend who’s a transman has a beard, a deep voice and a penis. I find it very strange that you think woman would feel more ‘safe’ with him in their toilets than a fully transitioned trans woman, who’s testostorone levels will likely be lower, she will have no penis, a high voice, breasts and visibly look ‘like a woman’

It’s interesting that you think victims of assault will feel safer with a transman than a transwoman. I’m a victim of assault, and I don’t agree at all. But I also don’t fear men in general because two nasty ones assulted and abused me. I understand that some people are bad, most are not and have always lived my life to not judge anyone by appearance.

No Early your transman friend does not gave a penis.

have

Because I have a biologically fenale body.

I have menstruated, been pregnant, breastfed, had cervical cancer and a hysterectomy.

And some women will have done none or only some of those but they are still women and will still know that they are women. There seems to be something more than just the purely biological functions.

An inner sense of self seems to contribute to the picture that you have of yourself.

I can believe that someone could have an inner sense of being female and yet have a male body or vice versa.

Having a male body would have terrified me as it wasn't me. I'd have been like but I'm a girl!

See, it really wouldn't bother me. Much as I'm happy enough in my own body, I'd quite like to have a go in a male body.

Just interested, if you had the male body would you feel like you would need to use female toilets because of your female feelings?

To be fair they did explain that they were entitled to use the disabled toilets for reasons entirely separate to their trans status. The OP wasn't just using the disabled toilets rather than choosing either the men's or ladies toilet.

Oh is the OP also JaneKent #2 #3 and VictoriaNorfolk?

Ok he took medication to enhance his clitorus to a suitable level to then have a long object attached to it that resembles a penis. If he was to drop his pants, the average person would say he had a penis. Is that factually correct enough for you?

Do you get off on invalidating people?

But that becomes irrelevant to the argument - if you want trans women to have to use the facilities relevant to their birth sex (regardless of the stage of their transition) then you have to accept that trans men have to use the facilities relevant to their birth sex. Therefore you have just consented for me to have to get changed in front of a person that looks male eg muscles, beard, masculine appearance. You might not be bothered by that but many women may well be.

You have completely missed my point here, weetabix, so I'll spell it out again.

I said: Because men are a threat to women but women are not a threat to men. There is no symmetry between the issue of men in women's spaces and women in men's spaces.

A man in a women's space is a threat to the women. A transwoman who is clearly male will be viewed as a threat in the same way as any other man.

A woman in a men's space is no threat to the men, but may be in danger herself. A transman in a men's space who is clearly female will be in danger in the same way as any other woman, but will still be no threat to the men.

A transman in a women's space who is seen as male will be viewed as as much a threat as any other man - if they really pass, it will not be clear that they have no penis.

A transwoman in a men's space. Don't know. They're all men and I view that as something men need to sort out for themselves.

The OP, in their first post, threw me under the proverbial bus, by saying that I, a transgender person, have no rights. And in several subsequent posts referred to me, a transgender person, in the same breath as perverts.

Forgive me for not taking the OP's intention of having a respectful debate as being genuine.

I see the OP as being self-serving. Self-serving at the expense of transgender people. And at the expense of women. I don't see the OP as being self-serving at the expense of men however.

I recall watching an episode of The Big Debate (hosted by Nicky Campbell), in which a man dressed in women's clothes used the women's toilets in a supermarket. They justified this by stating that they did so because they didn't want to scare other men.

No consideration given at all for women in that person's rationale. I knew however what they actually meant. It wasn't about not wanting to scare other men. They used the women's toilets because they didn't want to be scared themselves. Nonetheless, no matter which way one chooses to look at this particular scenario, it was women who were the one's who had to be accommodating. No consideration given towards women at all and how women would feel. Every consideration given however towards men and how they would feel.

I am sick and tired of it all. This thread has gone exactly they way I thought it would, and I'm happy that it has. I am a transgender person and I'm sick and tired of the entitled attitude people to whom I'm affiliated have. I live my life 100% of the time wearing women's fashion, and never once in my life have I ever used a women's toilet. I've been beaten up in men's toilet's for who I am. But I've never once considered it appropriate to encroach on a space that isn't mine, just to avoid any possibility that I may be attacked.

Women are not the problem here. Men are. And I long ago realised that avoiding men and encroaching upon women isn't the solution to that problem.

And so it angered me so much to read the OP's original post. To say I have no rights as a transgender person. I have the same rights as anybody else. I expect no more, no less. For the OP however, that clearly isn't enough for them. They want more rights. The OP certainly wants more rights than me.

And these rights they want? At the expense of who? Answer is they want them at the expense of women.

So I'm glad that the OP has faced criticism (and that criticism isn't bullying). And it's telling that they left the moment it became uncomfortable for them. In that respect, the OP is no better than the TRA's who block people on twitter/facebook etc. The OP had their say, and the moment it got a little bit heated, they stuck their fingers in their ears and said no more and left.

But at least the OP tried right? At least the OP managed to have their say right? At least the OP wanted to be respectful right? And so the OP will no doubt have left feeling like they are the victim. And it's the women who are the one's who are the problem.

No, it's women who are the one's who are having to deal with the problem. A problem that has been caused by men.

Just interested, if you had the male body would you feel like you would need to use female toilets because of your female feelings?

I don't think that's what Verbeena is saying, I think people are talking at different levels. If Verbeena has a male body she would feel like a man. It's more about the distinction of feeling right in your body versus not feeling right in your body than performing any role (or at least that's my interpretation!)

If Verbeena has a male body she would feel like a man

No, her point was that she wouldn't, I quoted her in my post:

"Having a male body would have terrified me as it wasn't me. I'd have been like but I'm a girl!"

A man in a women's space is a threat to the women. A transwoman who is clearly male will be viewed as a threat in the same way as any other man.

And a trans woman who looks exactly like a woman, has had gender reassignment surgery and doesn't look like a man?

And you are entirely missing my point. If it comes to it there won't be 1 law made for trans women and another for trans men. I cannot see that this would be allowed because you can't discriminate on the grounds of sex. They will pass a law to cover all transsexuals. So trans men might find that they have to use ladies toilets for example.

No, I don't agree as some on this thread are saying it's just about biology. It's their body that makes them woman. Nothing else.

But that is what makes someone a woman, Verbeena. It is being an adult female human that makes you a woman - dictionary definition. But being a woman doesn't say anything about your personality, your likes and dislikes, how you like to dress or what you like to do.

If Verbeena has a male body she would feel like a man

No, her point was that she wouldn't, I quoted her in my post:

"Having a male body would have terrified me as it wasn't me. I'd have been like but I'm a girl!"

She'll have to answer for herself but I think that's because she actually was a girl. If she's been born a boy that would have been normal for her instead.

It's more about the distinction of feeling right in your body versus not feeling right in your body

Bodily dissociation must be awful. However, it has nothing to do with being either a woman or a man. And that some males feel dissociated from their bodies is not justification for women being required to surrender their rights and their safe spaces and their affirmative action programmes in a sexist society.

The belief that bodily dissociation means that a human being has some ineffable essence and an innate soul inhabiting a wrong body is a religious one.

I do not wish to live in a theocracy.

It’s shocking how much a group of otherwise reasonable intelligent woman, refuse to see anything below the surface level. Yes they were born a man, no one is denying that.

But if someone has gone through the torture of gender dysphoria, most people understand that it does not make them ‘just a man’ and it is so niave and condescending to keep saying it.

You’re scared of them, because you don’t understand them. Just like what used to be the case with gay people. Thank god (well not literally) that people have seen the light now and have moved on to accept that some people are different to ourselves and just because we can’t feel it or see it does not make it a ‘choice’ they’ve made to go against the good old fashioned status quo and cause outrage amongst those who refuse to believe it.

I do not agree with self ID, I think lot of trans activists are horrible human beings and the language and threats they use are inexcusable. But I also find it uncomprehandable that people think they can freely dismis a whole group of people and there rights because of what they might be, because a few people are, we do not do that with any other minority group and quite rightly - it would not be acceptable to do it with any other minority group.

Now this thread is getting interesting, it is interesting to hear other views. Everyone has different perspectives and different views. I for instance still stand by Lockes principals that everyone is entitled to Liberty, as long as that Liberty does not take away the Liberty of others.

For example, I really disapprove of persons who self ID as women two days a week and take the "woman's" place on a woman's list or a board. This is projecting ones Liberty to damage and curtail the rights of women. Self ID will lead to the dissolution of women's rights/progress & result in 1950s stereotypes of what it is to be a woman.

I have major issues with the pressure being applied to young people to confirm to stereotypes, it's at its extreme gay conversion via physical means to make people more socially acceptable.

On the other hand I don't have an issue with transitioned male to female using a female toilet, as I can't see how a fully transition person who presents in all purposes as a woman is a threat to the Liberty and privacy of other women using that bathroom.
Nor do I have any issue with a transitioned person wishing to be called her or she.

All of us our human and we are all entitled to Liberty, as long as our liberties do not remove those from others.

The issue as I see it, is that women have been pushed so far, is that now it is all no, we can't negotiate as those who support the patriarchy will take take take take. Ps I also do firmly believe that anyone can be Feminist and anyone can be a worshipper of Patriarchy, regardless of sex etc. It's a viewpoint.

Yes they were born a man, no one is denying that.

I take it you haven't been on Twitter much?