AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

Because its either the feelz, so any man can be living as a woman, or its skirts and makeup. Which you know we will all laugh at.

And that's just it, isn't it? You don't want actual women to say that they're not just about giving birth and having the monthlies, as any woman saying that FOR THEM they are more than that thank you is not something you want to admit as that means transwomen might legit feel that way too.

Completely agree, from one of those who are  at being painted as a victim or vulnerable little girly all the time too.

This is the same issue, women and girls are not "painted as" victims, we are actually victims. Thousands of us have been abused as children, raped, trafficked, forceably married etc. Many of us will never recover from it, it's imprinted in our neural pathways, especially those of us who experienced it as children. We can not identify out of it and whatever words we use it's still there.

Weetabix have you ever seen any complaints about transmen being in all female hospital wards or in female prisons?

A transman jailed in the UK is put in the female estate. No one is complaining.

if you want trans women to have to use the facilities relevant to their birth sex (regardless of the stage of their transition) then you have to accept that trans men have to use the facilities relevant to their birth sex.

Why do you have to?

Presumably passing transmen are using male facilities now without any men complaining?

And so are trans women using female facilities but it doesn't matter in your brave new world. No one can presume that every one will be ok with it and so if you refuse to accept that any trans woman can use the female facilities because of their birth sex then the same rules apply to trans men. You absolutely cannot pick and choose and presumably that is discriminatory?

Verbeena Ive had a hysterectomy, I dont do any of those things anymore.

living as a woman is a BS phrase, usually used by males to try and make out they are women.

So have you worked out what it means to you yet?

How is it you live that is different to how all men live?

It means the same, you must define woman

No it doesnt

I can answer the what is a woman question

Adult human female

You might not like the answer but its an answer

I am completely unable to answer the what does living like a women mean

If you dont want to answer the question or you cant thats fair enough

But its not the same question

@VerbeenaBeeks shhhhh we are not allowed to descent. We have to be all womanly and girlie. The sexism and stereotyping in this thread is yuk. I am far more than a womb, I'm old enough to have battled blatant sexism and the glass ceiling. The worst thing is that that those doing the yelling are actually yelling at people who agree with a lot of what they say.. just not all of it. And I don't let anyone put me a box

It would have been nice if we could have had a reasonable discussion, instead of whatever this is. Anyway wine and dinner are calling, and no I didn't make dinner or do the washing, or any other "little" woman chores today.

I’ve been reflecting on this thread.

If the OP has been anorexic and sad they had on multiple occasions considered self mitigation but hat they’d now found a semi peace by living at 5stone...there would have been a very different response. Quite apart from the implications for women, the affirmation and fairly casual discussion of a serious ongoing mental health condition is just not ok. I include myself in this - hell, I pointed out the serious MH issue and didn’t do anything to suggest the discussion was really inappropriate.

I have sickened myself slightly.

Its fascinating that it was Verbeena who used the phrase "living as a woman" yet calling that out means we are accused of sexism.

So are we all agreed there is no way to live as a woman?

verbeena

Sorry just seen your reply to Hyppolyta

Please ignore my posts

Hyppolyta
Actually if I were in a hospital ward or, god forbid, locked in a prison cell with a trans man then I would be complaining because I would see them as a man. I think lots of other women would feel the same. Particularly women that had suffered abuse in the past. I would think that a masculine appearance, regardless of chromosomes being female, would actually be very frightening for some women. I don't think the fact that they had been born female would actually make much difference.

Actually if I were in a hospital ward or, god forbid, locked in a prison cell with a trans man then I would be complaining because I would see them as a man. I think lots of other women would feel the same. Particularly women that had suffered abuse in the past. I would think that a masculine appearance, regardless of chromosomes being female, would actually be very frightening for some women. I don't think the fact that they had been born female would actually make much difference.

I agree. I guess a third space is one answer (or a fourth space), though there aren't the same issues for men in relation to trans men there are still problems of privacy and dignity.

Particularly women that had suffered abuse in the past. I would think that a masculine appearance, regardless of chromosomes being female, would actually be very frightening for some women. I don't think the fact that they had been born female would actually make much difference.

How do you think they would feel if they were locked in a room/ward/cell with a totally non passing MTF?

Thats a fair point.

But if it come down to a choice of which youd rather, a transman who is the same height and musculature as you or a transwoman who is a foot taller and has a penis, which would you rather?

The very few transmen I have met have all been very clearly female which may explain my viewpoint, but I do not think Id automatically see a masculine female as threatening in the same way I would a male.

I agree hyppolyta

With your post of 19:27

@SmileEachDay ooh, that's quite sobering & insightful. You are right it would have got a completely different response.

How do you think they would feel if they were locked in a room/ward/cell with a totally non passing MTF?

Exactly the same I would think.

My point is all of these threads only ever address trans women and state that no trans woman can ever be allowed into female safe spaces and that regardless of physical appearance trans women were born male and so therefore have to use male facilities. This argument entirely ignores the other side of the coin - trans men who were born female and so then would have to use women's facilities.

We have to be all womanly and girlie. The sexism and stereotyping in this thread is yuk. I am far more than a womb

Same, feeling a bit offended tbh that to some that's all I am!
Fuck that lol

And so are trans women using female facilities but it doesn't matter in your brave new world. No one can presume that every one will be ok with it and so if you refuse to accept that any trans woman can use the female facilities because of their birth sex then the same rules apply to trans men. You absolutely cannot pick and choose and presumably that is discriminatory?

What brave new world? Where women and girls have space away from men?

If men have a problem with who uses their facilities, it's up to them to complain.

Women are complaining about male people using female spaces, because safety and dignity is important.

But if it come down to a choice of which youd rather, a transman who is the same height and musculature as you or a transwoman who is a foot taller and has a penis, which would you rather?

But that won't be the choice will it? We won't select on a case by case basis. It will be all trans women do this, all trans men do that.

The worst thing is that that those doing the yelling are actually yelling at people who agree with a lot of what they say.. just not all of it. And I don't let anyone put me a box

Agree, and to the last bit, - same! Feck off box.