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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

999 replies

wrexhamtrans · 17/11/2018 07:36

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

  1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
  2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
  3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

OP posts:
ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 17/11/2018 18:43

I will be expected to change in front of someone who to all intent and purpose looks like Dave the builder up the road????

Who had ever said that. I assume a transmen wouldn't want to use female facilities, men don't seem to have a problem sharing, so why would passing transmen have to use female facilities?

JacquesHammer · 17/11/2018 18:47

I am sure most of you think so too but you can't admit it because then your argument that biological sex is all that matters falls flat on its face

Not in the world of sport though, eh?

Weetabixandshreddies · 17/11/2018 18:48

I assume a transmen wouldn't want to use female facilities, men don't seem to have a problem sharing, so why would passing transmen have to use female facilities?

Not up to what the transmen want though is it? They can't just presume to take rights away from natal men. And all these woke men, they can't give consent on behalf of all men can they? It isn't theirs to give after all.

No no. If trans women have to use the facilities of their birth sex then so do trans men. You can't have it both ways and I'm sure if laws are passed it will be the same for both sexes so the law will say use the facility of your birth sex, not "trans men do this but trans women do that".

Hyppolyta · 17/11/2018 18:48

Ah the usual answer Verbeena, any mention of female biology is reducing women to that.

Although I am glad we can agree there is no such thing as "living as a woman" and its a sad attempt at gaslighting us.

Also, transmen in UK prisons are still housed in the female estate. It would appear not all safeguarding is transphobic.

CosmicCanary · 17/11/2018 18:53

So women are reduced to just being menstruators, pregnancy etc?

As a sex class they are some of our most basic functions. Saying so is not evil.

Teen vogue today posted a question..."why do so many black menstruators hate the menstrual cup"
What wrong with saying women?
It will upset the males who believe they are women and tge fenakes who believe they are males.
They can go to hell if they think their delusion beats fact.

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 18:58

Sorry, this is cracking me up now. Height isn't a stereotype

Way to spectacularly miss what was actually said.
Isn't it a stereotype in itself to be going on how a woman should be and look?
As in look at me, I can spot the man? When sometimes no, they're actually female, just a very butch bloke built one?

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 19:01

Although I am glad we can agree there is no such thing as "living as a woman" and its a sad attempt at gaslighting us

It is NOT gaslighting to have a differing viewpoint, FFS.
"Gaslighting!"
Another way of saying to women, shurrup, you're womanning wrong.
You do a damn fine job of shutting down debate yourself when you come out with that bollocks.
Which is kind of ironic seeing as you all complain about women, yanno, being silenced.

Hyppolyta · 17/11/2018 19:04

Oh ok, so what your viewpoint Verbeena?

I have only felt like I was living as a woman as a direct consequence of having female biology.

What does it mean to you?

How do you think one lives as a woman?

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 19:04

No no. If trans women have to use the facilities of their birth sex then so do trans men. You can't have it both ways and I'm sure if laws are passed it will be the same for both sexes so the law will say use the facility of your birth sex, not "trans men do this but trans women do that"

Exactly - works both ways.

OldCrone · 17/11/2018 19:05

Also, transmen in UK prisons are still housed in the female estate. It would appear not all safeguarding is transphobic.

Transmen don't request a move to a male prison. For obvious reasons. In case it's not obvious to anyone it's because doing so would put them at risk.

Transwomen request a move to a female prison. Such a move puts female prisoners at risk.

There is no symmetry here. Men can rape. Women can't. Women are more likely to be rape victims than men are. However they identify.

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 19:05

I have only felt like I was living as a woman as a direct consequence of having female biology.

What does it mean to you?

How do you think one lives as a woman?

Been.
Answered.
Repeatedly.

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 19:06

Bold fail dohhh

OldCrone · 17/11/2018 19:07

Exactly - works both ways.

Except it doesn't. Because men are a threat to women but women are not a threat to men.

jellyfrizz · 17/11/2018 19:07

So women are reduced to just being menstruators, pregnancy etc?

No, it’s saying that these are things that only females do. Our sex is pretty irrelevant in matters where biology isn’t different e.g. going about most of our lives.

And or one think that bringing forth life is a pretty fabulous and important thing to be able to do. No ‘just’ about it.

OldCrone · 17/11/2018 19:08

Been.
Answered.
Repeatedly.

Can you do a c&p for those of us who missed it? Should be easy for you to find if you've answered it so often.

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 19:09

What does it mean to you? How do you think one lives as a woman?

It is literally ON this thread as to why it's not just (for me) the fact I've had babies and I time of the month and have boobs and a girly downstairs that pushes babies out more than once.
Maybe it is to you that's all a woman is, but it's not to me.

sackrifice · 17/11/2018 19:11

Maybe it is to you that's all a woman is, but it's not to me.

Well, it isn't all a woman is, but what a woman is, is being born a girl and growing up to be a woman. That IS the only way one can live 'as a woman', surely?

EarlyWalker · 17/11/2018 19:11

een vogue today posted a question..."why do so many black menstruators hate the menstrual cup"
What wrong with saying women?

My sister was born with no womb, she does not menstruate, never has - no functioning vagina, no breastfeeding or childbearing. So many posts on these boards reduce being a woman to just this, and it saddens me so much.
A transwoman with gender dysphoria may well feel very sad about the fact they will never carry children, in the same way my sister does, and it is cruel in my opinion to use it as some kind of ‘got ya’ card all the time.

What does living as a woman feel like to you? That you cook the dinner and breastfeed the kids?
I’m a woman, I’m also the breadwinner, I haven’t made dinner in about 5 years, I don’t menstrste any more as the coil happily takes care of that for me. I do breastfeed but bloody hell do I wish I didn’t. But I know I am a woman, if a dr came to me today and told me I wasn’t id tell them
To fuck off as I’m not a man. if a transwoman feels that way too then having never been in that position myself I don’t feel qualified to judge her answer.
I don’t live my life thinking everyone is a predator, despite being previously sexually assulted by a stranger, domestically abused by an ex partner, revenge porned and treated very unfavourably by health professionals and previous employers because of my biology.

If you want to judge everyone as a predator then that is your prerogative and I will not judge you for it, but I’ve tried to ingrain in my daughter that she is NOT a victim and I am not happy at any one who puts her down enough to convince her she is.

excuse any typos, rough day = lots of wine

Hyppolyta · 17/11/2018 19:11

Of course you havent answered Verbeena and you cant answer.

Because its either the feelz, so any man can be living as a woman, or its skirts and makeup. Which you know we will all laugh at.

OldCrone · 17/11/2018 19:12

Maybe it is to you that's all a woman is, but it's not to me.
So what is it then, Verbeena. You have time to post what it isn't, but not what it is, and answer the question. Why is that?

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 19:12

Admittedly it's not in as much detail on this thread as I'm not doing it all again.
But it's THERE if you have eyes or want to see it in the first place that is.
Copy and paste? Do I have to do a RatRolyPoly (think it was her?) on the other thread that got the same, repeatedly and had to do the WOH MAMA WHAT MAGIC DID I DO THERE? Grin comment as I ain't.
I have twice now said the bloody thing.

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 19:13

So what is it then, Verbeena. You have time to post what it isn't, but not what it is, and answer the question. Why is that?

I. Have. REPEATEDLY told you. FFS Grin
Look on the sodding threads. I've said. It's even on here.
I'm not just my biology thanks.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 17/11/2018 19:15

Not up to what the transmen want though is it? They can't just presume to take rights away from natal men. And all these woke men, they can't give consent on behalf of all men can they? It isn't theirs to give after all.

Presumably passing transmen are using male facilities now without any men complaining?

Weetabixandshreddies · 17/11/2018 19:17

Except it doesn't. Because men are a threat to women but women are not a threat to men.

But that becomes irrelevant to the argument - if you want trans women to have to use the facilities relevant to their birth sex (regardless of the stage of their transition) then you have to accept that trans men have to use the facilities relevant to their birth sex. Therefore you have just consented for me to have to get changed in front of a person that looks male eg muscles, beard, masculine appearance. You might not be bothered by that but many women may well be.

Hyppolyta · 17/11/2018 19:17

My ex used to blank me for days but wouldnt tell me what Id done wrong cos he had already told me and I should know

MN relationships board taught me it wasnt me, its quite a commin tactic.

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