AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

Just picking up on a couple of things the OP said.

It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man.

At the end of the day I couldn't have gender dysphoria if we could eliminate gender stereotyping.

Forget about everything you know about transgender people and current society. Imagine you have read these without any knowledge that such people exist. What would you think was an appropriate solution? Would it be

(a) Change those people's bodies with powerful medication and radical surgery so that they better fit with the expected stereotypes and are thus acceptable to society.
or
(b) Educate people to accept diversity and that people don't always fit stereotypes, and also work to rid society of such rigid stereotypes.

I can't understand how we have come to the conclusion (as a society) that option (a) is the most appropriate.

Same, Earlywalker, isn't that a kind of stereotype in itself?

Sorry, this is cracking me up now. Height isn't a stereotype.

🤣

Before I had my eyes opened by another poster (and now you yourself!) that it is absolutely fuck all to do with Self ID and everything to do with daring to be trans at all

This isn’t about either of these things. My comment was about the OP using the word woman to describe themselves. That asking for respectful debate when you’re showing no respect for women’s ability to define themselves is ridiculous.

I don’t think people can change sex. I don’t agree with gender, seeing it as a way to subjugate women. Suggesting that a man can be any kind of woman is very offensive to me. I don’t hold those positions so random people on the internet will agree with me or like me. I hold them because they’re truthful and the only way to keep the safety, privacy and dignity women have fought for.

Before I had my eyes opened by another poster (and now you yourself!) that it is absolutely fuck all to do with Self ID and everything to do with daring to be trans at all.

Do you honestly think that we are here because transpeople exist? Do you think the majority of the women on this thread are so angry at the idea of people wearing non conforming clothes?

You must know it's about female only spaces and how important they are for the dignity and safety of women and girls.

Do you think it’s healthy for our daughters to see woman painted as a victim all the time? Do you think it’s healthy for them to see us alienate and oppress those that we do not understand? Without any consideration? No debate is happening on both sides, you certainly won’t entertain any viewpoint that any transwoman can use facilities, even if they have no penis and have lived as a woman for 50 years. No

Well said, @Earlywalker! Completely agree, from one of those who are at being painted as a victim or vulnerable little girly all the time too.
(Have atted you purely so you see and don't miss, tell me if you're one who doesn't like it and I won't in future )

I keep reading the phrase living like a woman

Can anyone elaborate on what that means? How does a woman live, exactly?

I was just going to post the same thing, Hyppolyta. I hope someone can answer. Maybe Earlywalker or Verbeena since they seem to be using the phrase.

This isn’t about either of these things. My comment was about the OP using the word woman to describe themselves.

Yeah, it kind of is. Seeing as the OP introduced and described herself as a transexual woman in her opening two paragraphs.
Not woman. Transexual. Unless you mean you'll only be happy if she keeps referring herself to a bloke.

as a bloke

I keep reading the phrase living like a woman

Can anyone elaborate on what that means? How does a woman live, exactly?

I seriously cannot be arsed to do it AGAIN when I literally did it yesterday on the other thread.
It's like bloody Groundhog Day lol.
But what is a womannnnn
aahhhhhhhhh

tried to autocorrect grin to gin. That might help lol

How do I know the OP was getting pms?Read her last message,those phrases are not in and posts and probably didnt come from any poster on here but from someone readi g this thread.
Those phrases were all in baracker's post I believe, which is why baracker not unreasonably assumed it was her you were accusing of bullying. I don't think it was a bullying post fwiw, though an angry one.

Yeah, it kind of is. Seeing as the OP introduced and described herself as a transexual woman in her opening two paragraphs.
Not woman. Transexual. Unless you mean you'll only be happy if she keeps referring herself to a bloke.

No, it was the OP saying being a woman for me is who I am. No qualifier, no explanation. The OP is not a woman.

I think that anyone who is born male has no claim to the word woman at all. Why can’t men be effeminate without having to no longer be men? That is the huge issue here.

But what is a woman has never been fully discussed that I've seen. Every single time it comes up someone gives a circular definition, someone else points out the logical gaps, the first person then accuses the second person of bullying or something and never responds further. That's something that could really do with a no accusations no flounces sticking to the point discussion. I think FWR has mostly given up but optimistic inexperienced new posters like me keep popping up and trying.

No debate is happening on both sides, you certainly won’t entertain any viewpoint that any transwoman can use facilities, even if they have no penis and have lived as a woman for 50 years.

But any male transperson using the facilities stops it being a female facility, it becomes mixed sex. You must understand that female only spaces exist for the dignity and safety of women and girls. Otherwise why do we have them? What's the point of having single sex facilities name only?

Also, how do I know that a male transperson has no penis, has lived as a women for fifty years, had a GRC or any other condition you want to apply. How do we keep the others out?

Do you think it’s healthy for our daughters to see woman painted as a victim all the time

Do you think its healthy for them not to see the opression, rape and murder that happens because of their sex?
Should we shield them from the damage males do?

I do not think all TW are out to abuse women and girls but I will be damned if you think I will accept a free pass for all as woman and girls will be seen as collateral damage and for the greater good.

but what is a womannn

Thats not what was asked

I think that anyone who is born male has no claim to the word woman at all.

No they dont despite their claims and demands. Woman is not an item of clothing or doing the cleaning or prentending you have periods!

No, it was the OP saying being a woman for me is who I am. No qualifier, no explanation. The OP is not a woman

The OP introduced themselves as a transexual woman. Not woman.
She used woman only when defining what woman is to her.
Which is what you all claim to want. To know what a woman feels like.
She's telling you what it means to her.
You're never going to "get" that though are you as you flat out have admitted that you'll never see transwomen at all as women and always as men.
Which is the problem with this so called debate. Transwomen in general in your eyes,right?. Not self ID. (Which I'm against too btw, and others too)

Verbeena you seem a little confused.

I didnt ask what is a woman, I know that.

I asked what you meant whem you used the phrase living like a woman

To me, the only times I have lived as a woman would be when doing someothing as a direct consequemce of my sex, such as menstruation, breastfeeding, pregnancy etc.

You clearly think living as a woman means something different, so can you elaborate?

Im really hoping you dont mean skirts and makeup.

I keep reading the phrase living like a woman
Can anyone elaborate on what that means?

but what is a womannn
Thats not what was asked

Potatoes, patatahs. It means the same, you must define woman. Nooo, not like that! Try again. What's a woman tho?
Even though you literally have said what it means to you. It's not the "right answer." Have another go.
Shan't lol. Think it was Rat on the other thread who was saying she got the exact same thing.

Everyone on this thread who has said it's fine for the OP/TW like them to enter female sex-segregated spaces still has a line in the sand, where they will say "but not in xyz case or abc example..."

But if you say yes to one "nice" TW, you HAVE TO say yes to THEM ALL. Why is that so hard to comprehend? You can't write law round the exceptions.

And you can be sure as shit that the "nice TW" are grossly in the minority when the label includes every transsexual, transgender, androgynous, sometime crossdresser, autogynephile, bigender, demigender, agender, pangender, genderqueer, two-spirit, fetishist, fantasist; + the cohort of completely non-trans sexual assaulters, rapists and molesters + anyone else who fancies, for whatever reason, calling themselves trans for any purpose.

So you dont think there is a specific way a woman lives then, Verbeena?

I honestly do not understand how some posters on here can deny that they were bullying. People were having a genuine conversation until the usual suspects turn up and start screaming about keeping out of our spaces etc. The OP was talking on behalf of herself not representing all trans people. She hasn't done the things that you take issue with so why hold her responsible? Can I rant and rave at you for any transgression committed by a woman over the years? Do you, as a woman, bear all responsibility for anything done by any women ever? Of course you don't.

The other thing that drives me mad - your arguments focus only on trans women. If you include trans men then your arguments fall over. Take changing rooms or toilets - you insist no trans women should be allowed in because that makes them unisex or mixed sex. But then if trans men are allowed in (on the basis they were born female) I will be expected to change in front of someone who to all intent and purpose looks like Dave the builder up the road???? That is just bonkers. I am sure most of you think so too but you can't admit it because then your argument that biological sex is all that matters falls flat on its face.

What I've read on this thread makes me ashamed to be a woman today.

To me, the only times I have lived as a woman would be when doing someothing as a direct consequemce of my sex, such as menstruation, breastfeeding, pregnancy etc.

So women are reduced to just being menstruators, pregnancy etc?
Well, that's lovely, isn't it?
Men saying that would get and quite rightly too.
Doesn't make it any better for it to be coming from a woman (I assume you're a woman.
I have a sense of being woman. I feel it, I am it, I just am (said in more detail on the other thread and so did others. (No, that doesn't mean I like knitting and pink before anyone starts.)
Was quite a good thread tbh.) Both "sides" being listened to which is presumably why OP thought they'd have a go at starting this one.

Exactly weetabixandshreddies!