AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

We also need to be able to explain/discuss that trans women like OP still have a male centric idea of 'being a woman' and are still demanding, though more politely, to be accorded access to women's spaces, to be seen as female because that is how they feel.

wrex didn't shout "Woman move over, get out of my way" but did still insist that women must acknowledge and accommodate their trans self as a woman - see Datun's post with the highlighted quotes.

The point those more shouty/rude posters are making is that right now the old, unthinking female acquiescence has been undermined and that even the 'nice trans' are demanding things from women. Had TRAs not shouted so loudly we may never have noticed or demurred. But they did and the only response that keeps women and children safe is "No!"

No, we will not fix this for you
No, we will not budge over
No, we will not collude
No, we will not agree that TWAW
No - to so many more demands and expectancies.

Basically this is one The Boys need to work out for themselves. Women have no need to do anything, not even referee the bouts!

I am maybe a third of the way through the thread and already there is so much "falling over ourselves to be nice" feminine socialisation in action.

Can you imagine the equivalent debate being held on, say Pistonheads? Do you think the men who hang out there would be stuffing their replies full of caveats and platitudes and "brilliant" and whatnot before they oh-so-nicely fawn (to put it bluntly) over the OP. I'm sure Wrex is adult enough to take robust discussion about a hugely controversial topic that they started.

It reminds me a bit of "Rigby" in Silicon Valley:

I was also amused to see the "YABU to think that you will get a respectful debate here, no matter what your intentions are" comment. I hope that poster will have the grace to return and admit they got it wrong. The women s/he derides so much are the ones who WANT the open discussion!

I'm sure Wrex is adult enough to take robust discussion about a hugely controversial topic that they started.

Uh oh

Shots will get to that part in a moment

seventhgonickname
You're saying you meant someone else, not me, when you were calling posters bullies?
Who?

And my response to the claim of bullying was to ask some pretty reasonable questions about whether I have to abandon my own rights to not be called a bully?

What tone IS the right one to say no to a man?

How angry am I allowed to be at men doing this over and over again and women disapproving of the tone I use to tell them no?

Take my tone however you please. I am immovable regarding my own boundaries and I will fight those who try to break past them.

I don't consent. The answer will always be no.

I hope that poster will have the grace to return and admit they got it wrong. The women s/he derides so much are the ones who WANT the open discussion

That boat is finally about to sail.

That boat is finally about to sail. Yup!

Er, why do I need to work with people like the op? I have every respect for the op. And I expect them to do so for me.
But it is not aggressive to state that I do not want males (however they identify) in my spaces or my daughter or granddaughter's spaces in any circumstances. And I resent being reduced to a feeling. There is no way to accommodate what the TRAs want with protecting female rights and preserving safeguarding. I struggle to think of any other 'condition' where everyone falls over and accommodates the 'feelings'. I will not be gaslit by this. No-one can force me to accept a false reality or a lie.

The OP actually said it themself:

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man

Using societal, (and by societal, I mean men's) gender stereotyping that has, historically, been used to keep women as lesser than, to further disempower them is breathtaking arrogance.

The OP absolutely knows that's what they're doing. They don't care because their sense of entitlement doesn't let them.

I can't understand the issue with calling op sexist when they ask they are not lumped in with biological males while simultaneously asking to lumped in with biological females because why? They have ladybrain ?!

You're so angry Barracker that you didn't listen.I didn't call you a bully,you made that assumption.
I have not questioned your boundaries.
I have not questioned your right to say no.
I objected to the way the OP was treated and all of a sudden I'm defending the TRA and their woke defenders.Another assumption.
I am not making a personal attack just asking that we don't when arguing a tread.it stops anyone getting to the real issues.
This is why 'ordinary women'dont join or read these threads.

The radical TRAs are wanting to take liberties from women, gays and pretty much everyone who doesn't agree with them .... the extremists on the other side want transsexuals not to have any liberties. It all feels like we are going so far backwards, and I don't know what the solution is. But I do know that the solution can not be to capitulate to any form of extreme views. And to at least try and unite to stop the removal of our rights, our liberties.

But its not starting from an even point. Imagine sex-based rights are apples.

At the moment, everyone of the sex: female owns all the apples. We can control who gets a look at, a taste or even a bite of any particular apple. Simple fact. They are our apples.

TRAs and Stonewall's little umbrella gang of sex: males are not only trying to take our apples by force, they're pretending they should have had them all along as well; and that sex: females stole them in the first place.

No. N.O. We are keeping our apples.

Datun CuriousaboutSamphire

Shots will get to that part in a moment smile

I am caught up and duly AND in equal measure!

I would just like to congratulate all the bullies here who have chased away the OP and sent PM's to her.

Yes...how DO you know this?

Did you send her a pm?

I didn't call you a bully,you made that assumption

Who did you call a bully then?

How do you know the OP was getting personal messages?

Thank you datun, eresh, and barracker for consistently and politely pointing out the op’s attempt at gaslighting the room.
It’s completely insidious.
And women are still falling over themselves to appear welcoming and kind, and erase the shadow of sex-based rights that we have left.

I don’t think the OP attempted to gaslight at all. By that logic - I definitely think telling woman you’re eroding their rights by saying you believe transwoman should not be treated as men, is gaslighting.

We can have different opinions without name calling and pointing fingers. That was the point of the thread.

Er, why do I need to work with people like the op?

Fair question. And by "people like the OP" I mean what we might regard as, or used to call, genuine transsexuals (I know the definition of this is troublesome!). I think we need to work with them because:

1. Otherwise we are removing rights from an already very marginalised group, which seems very cruel, especially if they have been quietly living as the other gender for decades.

1. Much of the general population are supportive of trans people, and I think we're much more likely to be listened to about the dangers of self-ID etc if we try to work with people to find a compromise. If we just try to erase trans people altogether then (as well as being mean) I think we're likely to be just seen as a bunch of bigots and less likely to get our views heard.

1. It's all very well to say men need to provide the solution but I don't really agree with that, even if you think trans women are men. If disabled people were having their rights removed we wouldn't say disabled people need to find the solution, we'd say it's joint responsibility as a society.

1. Some people (including the OP) say that rather than defining people as trans we should lose the concept of gender and accept men wearing dresses etc. I sort of agree in theory but I don't think it's likely to happen anytime soon and it's unrealistic to expect trans people to wait their whole lives for society to catch up.

Having said all that, I do agree with all that is said on MN about the dangers of self ID etc. I do agree that most males, however they identify, probably should not be allowed in women's spaces, sports, prisons, awards, job roles etc.

However I think I might be in favour of permitting some of these things for a small minority of genuine trans people. I'm not sure how this would be defined but possibly a combination of surgery or long-term hormone therapy, diagnosis of gender dysphoria etc. And some things like prisons should perhaps be considered on a case by case basis.

I just think it would be a shame to throw actual trans people under the bus in the fight against TRAs ... and that if we try to do that we won't be listened to anyway.

Oh, it started off so well, was thinking how it's good to have a proper discussion!
THIS shit is why people turn away from the feminism board and the debate though
SwearyG Sat 17-Nov-18 08:45:41 Spiteful? To ask why the OP is calling themselves a woman when women have said many times that that word cannot include people who are born male? Get over yourself.
I might be wrong, apologies if I am? But SwearyG are you the Man Friday one who was in the news/swimming pool etc?
If so I used to AGREE with you on here and even did the "Go Sweary" thing when first learning on here about it all. Before I had my eyes opened by another poster (and now you yourself!) that it is absolutely fuck all to do with Self ID and everything to do with daring to be trans at all.

How is saying that male is male and female is female, erasing people though?

We're not on the streets with assault rifles, we are saying NO to ladybrain, NO to males in female sports, NO to males in female spaces, NO to children being given drugs because they don't fit into gender roles forced on them from birth, NO to lesbians being taught to accept ladydick and all the fucking rest of it.

Verbeena, can the word 'transwomen' include people who are born biologically female? Or is it important that words describing groups of people have limits to respect and protect them?

And no, never convinced by this whole 'I was unpeaked' line, either you care about safeguarding and the rights of women and children or you don't.

"It doesn't reduce a male persons longer stride, arm length, height, larger lung capacity

I find this an interesting argument to make. Considering we’re on the subject of stereotypes, what about woman that are bigger/taller? Do you not think attitudes like this that you can ‘spot the man’ may lead these woman to believe they are men if they otherwise wouldn’t have thought it?

Same, Earlywalker, isn't that a kind of stereotype in itself? My high school friend was (and still very much is!) built like a bloke and looks like one.
So much so has been mistaken for my boyfriend once much to the hilarity of my teenage self
What a woman "should" look like or be like?

How do I know the OP was getting pms?Read her last message,those phrases are not in and posts and probably didnt come from any poster on here but from someone readi g this thread.
I have given up hope of a sensible conversation and will leave it to those used to this style of debate.It alienates anyone not from the group from trying to join in.
Not flouncing just going to sit with my wine,ibuprophen and some of the less than lovely bits of being a woman.It also makes me irritable so sorry if I offended people(not a socialised female apology just fom one women to some others)

And no, never convinced by this whole 'I was unpeaked' line, either you care about safeguarding and the rights of women and children or you don't

Not saying you should be convinced, it's true for me though. Yeah, everybody who disagrees with you doesn't care about women. Hates em. If you say so.