To think mumsnet is full of hate crime?

[Whyisthisacceptable]

The whole active thread list is always taken up by tons of trans bashing threads. How is it acceptable? Anything relating to anyone transgender is bashed. If this was against another minority of people, race, sexuality, religion it would be taken down and reported as hate crime. I don’t understand how the feminism board makes it acceptable?

How is stating fact transhatred. If you have a penis and balls right in front of you, you are a man, despite putting a dress on and saying you are a woman. You cannot change your natal sex. It you are a man and identify as a woman or you change your physical appearance tobmatchbthatcof a woman, you are a transwoman. How is trans hatred.

From the link you seem unwilling to read EarlyWalker

“Sex offending is overwhelming committed by males. There are 13,000 male sex offenders in prison compared to about 100 women. Almost 20% of male prisoners have committed sex offences. Our figures suggest that sex offending rates amongst trans prisoners is at least comparable to male rates.

If we were to believe that trans sex offending was more like the female figures (of 3%) then there would have to be an extra 1875 ‘hidden’ transgender prisoners. There is no evidence to suggest this is the case.”

Early Walker you need to take into account the nature of the crimes. The vast majority of women in prison are there for crimes relating poverty. Very very few are in for crimes of violence. The same cannot said of male prisoners.

EarlyWalker

To be counted in the trans in prison figure you'd need to do a lot more than "identify" as trans. The trans population figure would be much much lower than the number of people identifying as trans. Possibly closer to the 5000 GRC figure.

Your conclusion can't stand up because you're using a different definition of trans than the prison service.

In any case, trans people would also be included in the male-female figures, which also skews the numbers.

I'd like to see the source for the male-female figures. They would mean that women make up approximately 8% of the prison population, but my understanding is it's approximately 5%

I’m guessing my point went over your heads. That you can manipulate any statistic to say what you want it to say and ignore the rest.
kistanbul think you’re a bit late abroad the trans train love, the whole point that these woman are angry (and the bit I agree with - self ID is ridiculous imo) is because that’s not the case. The numbers are based on inmates telling them they are transgender (self declaration). Those holding a GRC are not counted in these trans statistics.

This is not a measure of incidence. The FPFW figures cannot be extrapolated back to whole populations, i.e. transgender, only after filtering them through some other criteria, i.e. prisoners. It introduces all sorts of unquantifiable biases.

Talking out of your arse OP. Can you read and think critically? Doesn't sound like it.

HTH

EarlyWalker

The Prison Service figures are not based on self ID because that's not the definition the MoJ uses.

"The survey only counts prisoners who have already had a case conference"
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-42221629

That's quite a step to make and way beyond ticking a "trans" box on a form.

I think we can agree that all statistics about trans people should be taken with a pinch of salt, whether it's suicide, crime or favourite biscuit. There have been so few studies with a statistically significant sample. We know very little.

It is irrelevant whether or not only a small minority of predatory men will use self identification to their advantage. Even one incident is one too many and should have been prevented.

Are you all lobbying to prevent the immigration of working-class Muslim men because one "honour" murder or forced marriage is too many? If not, why not?

kistanbul how do you think you get a case conference?
WereFox I’ve used that example before, PeakMuslim doesn’t quite have the same ring to it does it?

It's downright ridiculous to define the word "woman" as anyone who meaningfully identifies as female, because then how do you define female? Including a few extra terms in the circle doesn't make it any less circular.

You can identify with female stereotypes maybe, but don't try telling feminists that female stereotypes decide who is or isn't female.

You can't identify into female biology obviously. You can wish you had female biology, wish it painfully desperately if you suffer gender dysphoria, but you still don't have it. We all sympathise greatly with those who suffer dysphoria and many are (or were until the recent pushing of boundaries) willing to go out of our way to accommodate them as if they were of their desired sex. They're what the existing GRC process was set up for. With single sex exemptions ensuring they can still be excluded when women need it.

This nebulous gender identity concept is absurd. What tells a child that this feeling they have inside belongs to the label "male" or the label "female"? Stereotypes, that's what. No innate feeling comes with an English language label, much less one that already has an unrelated biological meaning.

It's a very simple logical test to see that "identifies as" and "is" are not the same concept. Man identifies as 6 yr old girl? Nope, not reality. 13 year old identifies as adult? Nope sorry, no driving license for you kid. Man identifies as cat? Glad you're happy with the look, but still human. White woman identifies as black? Cultural appropriation shock.

@WereFox you presumably think that women don't need any protection at all ever from men. So mixed prisons are fine, mixed hospital wards, mixed secure psychiatric wards, etc etc. Because it's only a small minority of men that are the problem.

But i’ve not seen a single post where anyone has claimed all Transwomen/transmen are evil/dangerous/etc. The point that many women are trying to make is that self-ID is dangerous as it opens the door for predatory men to gain access to vulnerable women/girls but that when they try to discuss this they are shouted down for being “transphobic”.

Additionally when you look at the activities being carried out by some TRAs (calling in bomb threats to venues hosting women’s rights talks, setting off smoke bombs at newspaper offices because they published a women’s rights advert) and the deeply concerning policies advocated by the likes Mermaids (removal of psychiatric assessment for under 18s wanting to have gender reassignment surgery; close dealings with a GP who has been fined and reprimanded for handing out puberty blockers) it is completely understandable that people are concerned.

Wanting a full and open debate on the issues is not transphobic.

I think we can agree that all statistics about trans people should be taken with a pinch of salt, whether it's suicide, crime or favourite biscuit. There have been so few studies with a statistically significant sample. We know very little. So are trans advocates pushing for more research to be done and insisting that data is accurately recorded? no

But i’ve not seen a single post where anyone has claimed all Transwomen/transmen are evil/dangerous/etc.

Well, the obsession with autogynephilia comes pretty close.

But you really don't have to claim everyone is evil/dangerous if you're also insisting that "one is one too many", do you?

But you really don't have to claim everyone is evil/dangerous if you're also insisting that "one is one too many", do you?

I would say one rape is still one rape too many, yes.

Early walker why do you consider all 500000 trans people to be men? Some of them are women.

@Whyisthisacceptable if you think a crime has been committed, why don't you report it to the police?

whyisthisacceptable

I think it is self ID many posters are bashing, not transpersons per se. So many believe that Rachael Dolezal identifying as a black person to get a black woman's position is offensive, so how is a man self ID-ing his way into a woman's space any different?

I would say one rape is still one rape too many, yes.

So you are willing to exclude the whole group in order to save us from the minority?

I'm not transphobic, but I am paedophile-phobic and a lot of really weird people have jumped under the stonewall umbrella to the point that they have even kicked the old-style transsexuals out. And every organisation under the sun is setting aside safe-guarding to be cool with transgenders.

Why is it on threads like these, where, as has happened on several occasions, an actual transwoman comes on to express her own concerns about self ID and to articulate her view that she does NOT experience MN as transphobic and hateful, the most vociferous critics of gender critical MNers do not acknowledge her contribution or bother to engage directly with her? It is very striking.

Women were always, for decades, natural allies of transsexuals, for whom most of us felt a deep empathy as vulnerable persons who were refugees from masculinity. It is deeply sad that all of that goodwill is now almost fatally undermined, not because a cohort of women has suddenly gone rogue and hateful, but because the new transgenderism is an extremist, cult-like, repressive ideology that encompasses - in fact, as wrexhamtrans says, it CENTRES - not the dysphoric but those with sexual fetishes and paraphilias. Moreover, it is vociferously promoting a transitioning pathway for children that sets them on course for sterilisation, sexual dysfunction, surgery and lifelong medicalisation.

Tragically, it is transsexuals with gender dysphoria, who are now a small subset of the trans umbrella and are notable by their care and concern for women and misgivings about setting children on a medical pathway before they have reached the age of majority, who will bear the brunt of any backlash from the hard right. The part-time cross-dressers, sexual fetishists, blue-haired university oppression appropriators and other agitators can and probably will abandon their new identities in the event of such a backlash, leaving the genuinely dysphoric to withstand the shit storm they did not create.

Tragically, it is transsexuals with gender dysphoria, who are now a small subset of the trans umbrella and are notable by their care and concern for women

I may be wrong here but to me your "old-school transsexuals" seem to be older people who have been used to exclusion and having to propitiate more powerful people.

It’s like the phrase that ‘two wrongs don’t make a right ‘

Of course I don’t approve of a lot that’s going on . Men in women’s prisons . Men competing against women in sports . Children being medicated . It’s against my values .

But much of the language and terms used on here is abhorrent . It negates and diluted the valid messages .

Also the constant reference to ‘bad’ trans people . There is an undercurrent of hate and lack of acceptance and I see it . The constant hurling of statistics to shut down any argument

Not every trans is a rapist , not every trans wants to steal women’s rights . The ones that do this are appaling .

But the constant repetition of statistics and crime every time the argument comes up reads like an assumption and prejudice that really concerns me .