To think mumsnet is full of hate crime?

[Whyisthisacceptable]

The whole active thread list is always taken up by tons of trans bashing threads. How is it acceptable? Anything relating to anyone transgender is bashed. If this was against another minority of people, race, sexuality, religion it would be taken down and reported as hate crime. I don’t understand how the feminism board makes it acceptable?

When people convert to Islam and change their name, do you refuse to address them by their new name? After all islam is very mysogonistic. Or if you saw someone doing this deliberately as they didn’t agree with the religion, would you see that as islamaphobic?
If someone changed their name for whatever reason I’d have no issue with it. If it was a friend I’d probably be worried, because I think religion is dangerous bunkum, but I would call my friend what they requested I think if someone is doing something because they disagree with a religion that’s not necessarily phobic - I won’t go to church with my sister, I’m not Christianphobic, I just don’t believe in it.

Also on the same subject, why is PeakTrans an acceptable phrase but not PeakMuslim?
Because Muslim people don’t tell lesbians to suck their girl cocks? I don’t know. Because Muslim people don’t tell me to die in a fire? I’m being flippant. It’s a flippant term, I guess. It doesn’t mean I am transphobic, it means I’m sick seeing women pushed to one side, abused and insulted by a caucus of TRAs who seem to have a disproportionate amount of power.

You say the definition of a woman is so important as language can’t change, what was the old definition of marriage? ‘Between a man and a woman’ this has been changed to move on with the times within an accepting society
It has changed via a process of negotiation- and actually the changes in marital law had no material impact on anyone except homosexual couples who can now get married.
The change to the meaning of woman to include people with male bodies is being railroaded and has a massive impact on women’s ability to define and fight for rights. Like it or not, inviting members of the class who oppress women into the definition is bad for women - AWS as a tiny example.

I do not believe transwoman are biological woman, I believe they are transwoman and should be treated as such and not a man
No argument from me there.

You keep talking about respect and dignity as key within your argument, where’s the respect and dignity to transpeople when constantly refusing to acknowledge them as the gender they present in?
I couldn’t give a stuff how people dress, or what make up they wear or if they want to call themselves Priscilla. I’ll acknowledge their gender - what I won’t do is accept they have changed sex.

Cross dressers are trans comes under the stonewall umbrella, if they wish to identify this way. (Don’t like stonewall to make that clear!) This is not the current legislation for defining a transgender person. Why do you therfore keep referring to them as one as if this is fact?
The GRA reforms wil make that fact if the cross dresser wants.

my views are very middle of the road. I don't agree with the extremes on either side of the argument

Same

I think its the case with an awful lot of people on mumsnet

EarlyWalker- I know you weren't addressing me, but I'll answer!

The think is, I believe that somebody could actually become a Muslim. I don't believe a man can actually become a woman. So I am happy to use whatever names and pronouns a transwomen wants me to use, I am doing it out of courtesy. I don t actually think she is a woman. And I am pretty pissed off with the fact that I am now in a position where saying that can get me banned from Twitter, for example. I don't blame the ordinary transwomen in the street for that- it's not her fault. But there are some big beasts behind all this- I blame them.

I don't know about you, but I am arguing that being a woman is absolutely nothing to do with those things. It's biological reality that makes you a woman.

Completely agree. I don't often wear makeup, rarely wear dresses or skirts, never wear heels, spend most of my hobby time doing heavy manual labour with power tools, often buy men's jeans and shoes because they are better made and more durable than women's and am the main breadwinner in our household. None of that makes me a bloke. Gender is a load of stereotypical nonsense.

When I go for a smear test

Gah! Totally off topic now but thank you for posting that - totally forgot I got my letter at the beginning of this week and knew there was something I meant to do!

AssassinatedBeauty

I don't know how you identify as female per se. I wish a psychologist would post here to explain this. From my limited knowledge I think that we have an internal sense of who we are. If your body doesn't match that inner picture I guess you somehow try to make sense of it and what makes sense in this case is changing your body's appearance to that of the opposite sex.

We know relatively speaking so little about the brain. I don't find it too difficult to believe that somehow the brain has a sense of what sex we are, possibly due to hormonal exposure during development. Just supposing that the physical body for some reason develops differently to the body? I can then see that the brain and the body don't match up.

I have no idea if I'm correct. It's just an hypothesis but to me it makes sense (or at least as much sense as other things that the brain can do - like storing images or memories for example. How can essentially a piece of meat remember what I did last week, where I went or who I saw? Or what I'm doing tomorrow? If it can do that somehow then I don't find it a huge stretch to imagine that it could assign me a "gender" or at least an identity or image that it thinks I should be .)

Weetabixandshreddies - well put, I said the same on another thread re We know relatively speaking so little about the brain. I don't find it too difficult to believe that somehow the brain has a sense of what sex we are, possibly due to hormonal exposure during development. Just supposing that the physical body for some reason develops differently to the body? I can then see that the brain and the body don't match up.

I agree entirely. I got told to stop being wishy washy though and have another go at defining woman.

Thanks for answering @Weetabixandshreddies. So, not sure what this feeling/knowing/sense of being female actually is. Yet we're to accept this as the reason why women and transwomen are the same.

It's a belief in brain-sex, or in sexed souls, that can somehow end up in an opposite sexed body, surely?

I sort of hoped that because we get told so often that we are wrong and that TWAW, that it would be explainable and understandable to someone like me. I don't want to be labelled a "hater", a bigot or whatever. I'm generally a live and let live type, and I would go into battle to defend any adults desire to present how they like (barring things that are damaging to them or others of course). But this makes no sense to me.

We know relatively speaking so little about the brain. I don't find it too difficult to believe that somehow the brain has a sense of what sex we are, possibly due to hormonal exposure during development. Just supposing that the physical body for some reason develops differently to the body? I can then see that the brain and the body don't match up.

I absolutely agree and I already know that my pre natal Oestrogen exposure was far higher than it should have been.

@wrexhamtrans you've said that a few times now, about oestrogen. Is it possible to say what kind of tests are done on adults to determine what hormones they were exposed to in utero?

Gender is a load of stereotypical nonsense

yes. The minute you accept that it's any thing other than biology that make people female, you are accepting that sexist stereotypes are true.

I just find it so astonishing that some of the articulate, otherwise fairly sensible seeming posters we have here don't see that It's so flipping obvious!

After all islam is very mysogonistic

Personally I don't find Islam misogynist, although there are clearly some men who are misogynist and also Muslims.

Everyone I know hides the feminism boards, me included. Whoever is posting on those threads you are on about, it sure as heck ain't me.

ponders whether to hide AIBU as well

AssassinatedBeauty .... unfortunately I haven't a clue how this was determined. I've had so many tests and scans that I'm not sure how this was picked up.

When people convert to Islam and change their name, do you refuse to address them by their new name? After all islam is very mysogonistic. Or if you saw someone doing this deliberately as they didn’t agree with the religion, would you see that as islamiphobic?

Also on the same subject, why is PeakTrans an acceptable phrase but not PeakMuslim?

FFS!

People can change religion but they cannot bloody well change sex!

Calling someone by their new name is not asking me to lie in the same way as making me call a man 'she'.

What a stupid false equivalence.

There are so many disparate threads to this. The significance of a sense of 'Gender' is positively important to some people, which is fine. Others of us see it as a negative thing almost entirely.

No one has ever made a case for why we should have spaces and rights segregated defined by Gender, not sex.

The other thing that keeps cropping up is the idea of feeling you are in the wrong body, which undoubtedly a hugely difficult situation. I don't doubt the phenomena exists. But I'm curious that when this feeling of dysphoria manifests as focused on the sex of your body, people are ready to accept it as a representation of a deep internal truth, but when it manifests as a feeling that a limb really shouldn't be there, or a slim body is in fact grossly fat, we see it as a dangerous condition?

So there is, actually, proper scientific evidence to support TWAW? Can you link to it please?

"unfortunately I haven't a clue how this was determined. I've had so many tests and scans that I'm not sure how this was picked up."
Isn't that the sort of thing you would grab with both hands as a reason for feeling the way you do?

@wrexhamtrans I'm not a scientist, but I'm struggling to see how such a test could even be possible. Perhaps it was discussed as a possibility, rather than a definite fact?

"Isn't that the sort of thing you would grab with both hands as a reason for feeling the way you do?"

In isolation yes but there are literally dozens of tests and so many things flying about it just gets lost in the mix. As I said earlier I personally haven't seen how it actually fits so it isn't something I pursued.

So I think we've got to understanding that some people think they are the wrong sex/gender and that it's pretty awful for them, and actually I think this has turned into a useful discussion, but I still don't understand why their right to be in women's space is more important than women's right not to have male bodies in their space.

EverardDigby

*"but I still don't understand why their right to be in women's space is more important than women's right not to have male bodies in their space."

It isn't and it shouldn't be despite what many will argue. I don't personally claim amy right to be in a woman's space that's why I choose disabled toilets for example. I do find though that the vast majority of women do accept me because the recognise the process I have been through and the medical transition I have made.

Remember the people driving this debate don't represent all transgender people.

Yep - I don’t know if you’re a twitter user Wrexham but @kenesis did an excellent thread about how demanding and bullying and general cock waving wasn’t the best way to try and co exist with women.

@RatRolyPoly and others on My Side (I know what the Other Side thinks): do you think "feeling like/identifying as a woman" isn't a circular definition or just that it doesn't matter if it is?

It's circular, but I'm not sure how else people with disphoria are supposed to quickly or accurately articulate that they identify more with the stereotypes of one gender than the other and have no understanding, or that they disassociate, even have hatred of the body they were born with.