To think mumsnet is full of hate crime?

[Whyisthisacceptable]

The whole active thread list is always taken up by tons of trans bashing threads. How is it acceptable? Anything relating to anyone transgender is bashed. If this was against another minority of people, race, sexuality, religion it would be taken down and reported as hate crime. I don’t understand how the feminism board makes it acceptable?

So it's about your biology? Just the fact that you know you are female

I didn't say it was about biology as I know I'm female.
Yes, it's about biology, but it's also about "knowing" "feeling" "being" female too. Brain wise. And no, I don't mean that means I like pink and fluffy kittens etc.

@wrexhamtrans do you not understand why that is?

So what does it mean Verbeena? If it's impossible to quantify or explain then what use is it as a way of classifying people?

Bertrand, I don't think Verbeena is trans!

Definitely not trans, got all the biological bits too lol

wrexhamtrans do you not understand why that is?

Sorry not understanding what you're asking ?

Answering a question posed to someone else....

I personally believe it's possible to be born in the wrong body. That said it's a small percentage of people identifying as transgender in my opinion.

Interestingly during my medical investigations it was found I was exposed to significantly higher levels of Oestrogen before I was born. I have had though to find a direct correlation between this and being trans.

Interestingly I find society far more accepting of women who do not confirm was do called gender norms than men who don't

that wasn't an accident wrexhamtrans

women have spent the last 100 years fighting against gendered stereotyping

Early what questions would you like answered

The thread has moved on now. But several of my questions were ignored or dismissed as whataboutery. Most recent this one, while we were on the subject of why it’s so hard for you to use the correct pronouns:

When people convert to Islam and change their name, do you refuse to address them by their new name? After all islam is very mysogonistic. Or if you saw someone doing this deliberately as they didn’t agree with the religion, would you see that as islamiphobic?

Also on the same subject, why is PeakTrans an acceptable phrase but not PeakMuslim?

You say the definition of a woman is so important as language can’t change, what was the old definition of marriage? ‘Between a man and a woman’ this has been changed to move on with the times within an accepting society. I do not believe transwoman are biological woman, I believe they are transwoman and should be treated as such and not a man.

You keep talking about respect and dignity as key within your argument, where’s the respect and dignity to transpeople when constantly refusing to acknowledge them as the gender they present in?

Cross dressers are trans comes under the stonewall umbrella, if they wish to identify this way. (Don’t like stonewall to make that clear!) This is not the current legislation for defining a transgender person. Why do you therfore keep referring to them as one as if this is fact?

am very much with RatRolyPoly here in that my views are very middle of the road. I don't agree with the extremes on either side of the argument.

Completely agree with this. Against self ID completely but also support transgender people, can’t get onboard with the hate and unreasonable demands on both sides.

In many ways society decides what is acceptable for men and what is acceptable for women.

We are society. We can change this. We can make it as acceptable for a man to wear a dress as it is for a woman to wear trousers. Transgender ideology pushes us backwards, by saying that the man who wears a dress is a woman.

EarlyWalker

I think society loves to have a scapegoat- once it was red haired people, or Jews or Catholics or Protestants, then gays, then obese people, then people on benefits, peopel with disabilities, then Muslims were hated on, now it is trans

You keep talking about respect and dignity as key within your argument, where’s the respect and dignity to transpeople when constantly refusing to acknowledge them as the gender they present in?

Can you define what you mean by 'the gender they present in'?

I think society loves to have a scapegoat- once it was red haired people, or Jews or Catholics or Protestants, then gays, then obese people, then people on benefits, peopel with disabilities, then Muslims were hated on, now it is trans

“Hated on”? Ffs

I personally believe it's possible to be born in the wrong body. I dont disagree with this per se, I certainly believe people can have a mental disconnection with their body, which could be construed as born in the wrong body. And I think it is right, that as informed and consenting adults, they can alter their body in any way they so desire. And they can live according to whatever gender they identify as (personally dont believe in it but Im not having to live it). And on a personal direct basis i would address them as their preferred name and pronoun (he or she only, I cant abide the ze/zir etc, attention seeking nonsense) But none of this can change the biological sex of who they are or convince me TWAW. Transwoman are transwomen. Or that I should have to accept this ideology as scientific fact or truth.

I may be wrong, but I don't think it's as easy as making it acceptable for a man to wear a dress.

We are all arguing that being a woman is more than wearing dresses, high heels, make up etc so why would it follow that being transexual boils down to just clothes or stereotypical behaviour?

Is it not more to do with a sense of self? A sense inside of who you are and then trying to match the physical body with the internal sense of self?

Is it not more to do with a sense of self? A sense inside of who you are and then trying to match the physical body with the internal sense of self?

Yes, this. Sense of self was what I was trying to explain upthread lol hen asked to describe it.

When people convert to Islam and change their name, do you refuse to address them by their new name?

no, why would I? Someone's name is entirely their choice.

A better analogy would be that person expecting me to follow sharia law because of their conversion.

I would of course not be happy with that, in the same way that I'm not prepared to pretend that I'm happy with mixed sex provision for things like communal changing and toilets. Because if transwomen come into the ladies toilets, they become mixed sex.

Something else that I struggle with. Trans people say that they are an incredibly marginalised and vulnerable minority. But somehow in a very short time they have made a seismic shift in society. They have carried all the major state institutions before then and have managed to impose controls on free speech. How do those things square?

But what is this sense of self that is definitively female? How can you know that this is what all women and transwomen share that makes them the same?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

Thanks, I think you missed the rest of the post. If you saw someone refusing to call them by their new name, because they didn’t believe in the ideology behind Islam and therfore didn’t accept their new religion choice, would you see this as islamaphobic?

There were a few more questions in there to.

I am happy to use whatever names and pronouns people want me to use. And in 95% of circumstances I don't think it matters whether somebody is trans or not. And I will always defend the rights of trans people to live their lives peacefully and ungarrassed and protected by equality law. And to be treated with dignity and respect. But there is that tricky 5%. And I honestly think that 5% is completely irreconcilable.

Answering @wrexhamtrans question about my response to "Interestingly I find society far more accepting of women who do not confirm was do called gender norms than men who don't".

What I was getting at was that women know this, we are aware of this, we live it. It is because of the hierarchy of gender imposed on women. To be male-like and masculine is good. To be female-like and feminine is bad. Especially if you are male.

I find it astonishing that you mention this as an interesting point, as if women and feminists might never have noticed it before!

BertrandRussell

I guess it's the activists that are forcing change through, as a group, but I can see how vulnerable individuals can be marginalised.

As an example, I am female. I don't feel vulnerable. I wouldn't have a problem with sharing toilets, changing rooms etc with anyone. BUT me feeling like that isn't indicative of all women and I can easily understand how other women could feel fearful or vulnerable.

Just because some people can speak out it doesn't mean that everyone in that group feels able to.

We are all arguing that being a woman is more than wearing dresses, high heels, make up

I don't know about you, but I am arguing that being a woman is absolutely nothing to do with those things. It's biological reality that makes you a woman.

The things listed above make you feminine, which I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge that many transwomen are.

I don't want to share public toilets and changing rooms with male-bodied people. When I go for a smear test and specifically ask for a female HCP I don't want it to be a man who had identified as a woman doing the procedure. I have been a victim of sexual assault on more than one occasion and when I am at my most vulnerable, I do not want to share space or be attended to, by men. And I make no apology for that.

I have no issue at all with transwomen. Wear what you want, call yourself what you want. But human beings cannot change sex and you should not be accessing single sex spaces that do not match your biology.

sorry ma'am

since you asked so nicely earlywalker

if you saw someone refusing to call them by their new name, because they didn’t believe in the ideology behind Islam and therefore didn’t accept their new religion choice, would you see this as islamaphobic?

probably. I had a major dust up with another GC poster here because I thought they were being incredibly disrespectful to a trans advicate poster over her choice to wear a hijab.

Also on the same subject, why is PeakTrans an acceptable phrase but not PeakMuslim?

peak trans is not acceptable to me. it's not a phrase I use. but I'm not big on policing the speech of others so I don;t get too excited about it.

You keep talking about respect and dignity as key within your argument, where’s the respect and dignity to transpeople when constantly refusing to acknowledge them as the gender they present in?

as above. humans can't change sex. I don't want to share certain facilities with men and I understand that transwomen are men.

i have worked with 3 transwomen and got on very well with 2. the third kept siddling up to people in the ladies loo and saying really creepy things, so I didn't think much to them.