To think mumsnet is full of hate crime?

[Whyisthisacceptable]

The whole active thread list is always taken up by tons of trans bashing threads. How is it acceptable? Anything relating to anyone transgender is bashed. If this was against another minority of people, race, sexuality, religion it would be taken down and reported as hate crime. I don’t understand how the feminism board makes it acceptable?

By the definition of transgenderism cross dressers ARE transgender women (and I disagree by the way).

Oh yeah, I agree with this too. It's just the small number of cross-dressers I've met also don't agree with it! Or rather, they don't give a rats arse what "umbrella" they come under, and whilst their dressing up in women's garb might mean they could get into a ladies' changing room, not one single one of them would. Because they don't think they're women, and they're really just normal blokes who like to wear corsets during sexy time; they're just your garden variety cross-dressers, not opportunistic sexual predators. Thankfully I think very few people are, but still too many, and still enough to be wary of.

FWIW I have met cross dressers who declare themselves trans and seek access to women only spaces even though the identify as male.

Yes, I did think there must be some out there. But if they declare themselves "trans", what are they declaring themselves as? Surely whether you're trans or not isn't the issue, it's whether you're a woman or not that says which loo you use; do they say they are women? In which case in what way are they cross-dressers?

I'm a bit interested in this side of things (as you can tell), but perhaps I'm assuming a level of familiarity you might have with cross-dressers that probably isn't there, given that you're trans! Don't feel you have to answer any of my questions along these lines, I can expand my connections with cross-dressers; perhaps I should!

I think and feel like a woman. I accept that not everyone does though.

I think like a woman in that I am a woman who thinks, but if you look at stereotypes I think like a man: I prioritise logic and evidence, I am not good with taking account of feelings and relationships and I'm not very empathetic. So where does that leave us?

I'm quite comfortable about the "What is a woman?" question.
If someone insists they are a woman, I think it's quite reasonable to ask them what it is that they are being. And I have never heard a satisfactory answer yet from someone who doesn't have a vagina.

I really do find the phrase " I think and feel like a woman" to be massively problematic.

I agree. Unless someone can give me a convincing explanation of what all women think and feel.

I’m as Gender Critical as a Women’s Movement pub crawl, but I certainly questioned the poster who, on another thread, was advocating against ever using language that may offend, yet at the same time was in possession of a username that was almost guaranteed to cause offence to transpeople

I think I know the thread you mean, the one something like the title where it was "if you know something offends, AIBU to think you should stop using it?
If so that was outstanding in the hypocrisy.

I'm quite comfortable about the "What is a woman?" question

yep. If someone is insistent that some men are actually women, it's completely reasonable to ask them to define their terms.

They never do of course because they know that their belief of what constitutes a woman is hugely sexist and they don't want to admit it.

I once heard it said that everyone has traits of autism

That is absolute nonsense. Anyone who says that has no understanding of autism.

I love clothes shopping, I knit and sew, I socialise only with women, I love makeup and getting my nails done and dozens more thanks like that.

I hate clothes shopping, I knit and sew, I socialise with both men and women, I don't own any makeup and I've never had my nails done. Whether or not you do any of these things are not what makes you a woman or a man.

I think and feel like a woman but if society accepted that I could be that way and still be a man would I do so...... possibly I wouldn't transition.

This is why I find the whole transgender ideology problematic. It points to a problem within society, that if we were more accepting of diversity, people would not feel the need to transition.

RatRolyPoly

I be met more than a few cross dressers who find it a game to dress up as women and use women's toilets. They don't say that they are women fundamentally but do chose to identify as women during the time they cross dress. This for some is part of the "thrill".

I think like a woman in that I am a woman who thinks, but if you look at stereotypes I think like a man: I prioritise logic and evidence, I am not good with taking account of feelings and relationships and I'm not very empathetic

I'm not looking at sterotypes either. I never wear make up, don't think I've ever worn high heels in my life, and I don't "do" girly stuff like paint my nails or spa days or sleepovers if that's what you mean by stereotypical girl?
The reason you're not getting a satisfactory answer that you "like" is it's not easy to put into words.
I just "am."

sorry, you said sterotypical man, but my point was I'm not looking at stereotypes. Man or woman.

I really do find the phrase " I think and feel like a woman" to be massively problematic.

Yes - as if there is a single way that all women 'think and feel'. And how would a man know that he 'thinks and feels like a woman'? Since he's not a woman and has never been one.

And what are you like, that is shared with all women and with trans women that lets you know you and they are all women?

If you just are, then you are surely just saying that you are yourself, and you cannot say that there is some defining feeling or way of being that is female.

Verbeen how do you know your “I just am” wouldn’t be the same if you were a man?

Yes - as if there is a single way that all women 'think and feel'. And how would a man know that he 'thinks and feels like a woman'? Since he's not a woman and has never been one.

This.

I just "am."

OK Verbeena.

So if you 'just are' a woman. what makes you and Jane Fae both women?

to say that two things are in the same set they must share common characteristics.

Verbeen how do you know your “I just am” wouldn’t be the same if you were a man?

There's no easy answer, I just know I match up feeling like and biologically like. Knowing from an early age you're in the "wrong" body and not matching, to have them differing,and your body repulsing you, and differing to you mentally..... just.... as I said, I just can't.
I feel female. I am female. If some biological women don't feel female, I don't speak for them, just me. I do though.
So it stands to reason that others will too. As at least one other poster has said on this thread. I'm not dismissing them as it's "not my experience".

What do you share with Jane Fae that you don't also share with some men?

(For the sake of argument men is being used here as meaning males who aren't trans. Buggered if I'm saying the c word.)

So it's about your biology? Just the fact that you know you are female?

Crikey. So having a female body and not hating your body gives you a female gender?

Verbeena-can I ask a quiestion? Please feel free to ignore me. You say that you just "know" that you're a woman. And of course I defend your right to be able to live as you want to and be protected under equality law. However, do you think that I have the right to say "You are a transwoman, but I do not think you are actually a woman, and I think there are circumstances in which I should be able to say you have no right to be in a particular space?

Verbeena
Do you think it's possible to be literally 'born in the wrong body'?

This is why I find the whole transgender ideology problematic. It points to a problem within society, that if we were more accepting of diversity, people would not feel the need to transition.

I agree it definitely points to a problem in society. But that doesn't mean the people suffering as a result of that problem are a problem too (sorry that's garbly, hopefully it makes sense). The issue (ok, one of them) I have with trans ideology is when it goes beyond helping people trying to fit in to the world and becomes gender essentialism, defining people by feminine or masculine traits as being women or men.

"as if there is a single way that all women 'think and feel'. And how would a man know that he 'thinks and feels like a woman'? Since he's not a woman and has never been one."

This is a very very difficult thing to quantify and communicate. In many ways society decides what is acceptable for men and what is acceptable for women.

Interestingly I find society far more accepting of women who do not confirm was do called gender norms than men who don't. If a woman goes out without make up its no big deal. If a man goes out with make up its very much a big deal!

Bertrand, I don't think Verbeena is trans!