To think mumsnet is full of hate crime?

[Whyisthisacceptable]

The whole active thread list is always taken up by tons of trans bashing threads. How is it acceptable? Anything relating to anyone transgender is bashed. If this was against another minority of people, race, sexuality, religion it would be taken down and reported as hate crime. I don’t understand how the feminism board makes it acceptable?

Ah, I think I loaded your question with the weight of my experience whatsthecomingoverthehill! Sorry about that

I think it's a fair question of yours, and an interesting one. Like I say, the people I've spoken to who have experienced both say there are extremists on both sides (as Verbeena notes). That's why about 25% of my posts are purely urging people to not polarise to the extremes and to stand alone in the middle ground with their principles, if that's what they feel is right.

I won't repeat what I said, but I did post above that my experience of talking to some TRAs was what led me here.

Do you think wrexham that some of your distress might have been eased if society was not so very gendered?

Not the dysphoria, but maybe some of the other emotional impacts?

I am very much with RatRolyPoly here in that my views are very middle of the road. I don't agree with the extremes on either side of the argument.

Thanks for answering me Wrexham

In relation to what you said,

For me my gender identity is about the people I relate to, the way I relate to these people, my emotional responses, the way I think about things, my hobbies and interests...... by themselves no necessarily much but put together they are significant. What it absolutely isnt is any form of sexual motivation!

I have school reports from pre school that refer to my awkwardness around boys and the fact I was much more comfortable around girls. At playtime I was skipping with the girls rather than playing with the boys. Hundreds of little things like that.

I could say the opposite, education, career, hobbies etc. tend to be more "male" and my best friends are male, yet I'm a woman. I think this sits with some of your earlier posts in that the difference is that I do not have gender dysphoria, it's not about any of this superficial stuff.

I am very much with RatRolyPoly here in that my views are very middle of the road. I don't agree with the extremes on either side of the argument

Same.

For me my gender identity is about the people I relate to, the way I relate to these people, my emotional responses, the way I think about things, my hobbies and interests...... by themselves no necessarily much but put together they are significant.

But that has no relevance to what sort of body you have. What you are describing is just personality. Women do not all have the same 'emotional response' to things, so I don't really know what you mean by that. Hobbies and interests are only 'gendered' by social convention, and these can change over time and from place to place.

I have school reports from pre school that refer to my awkwardness around boys and the fact I was much more comfortable around girls. At playtime I was skipping with the girls rather than playing with the boys.

Again, what is wrong with being a boy who likes 'girl' things and prefers the company of girls? You don't need to be a girl to enjoy skipping or to be a boy to enjoy football. A child doing things which are not stereotypical for their sex should not be told that their body is wrong.

Society needs to become more accepting of diversity. Gender ideology and the notion of transgenderism is anti-diversity, since it just pushes the non-conformists into another gender box.

But what does "having a gender" entail? How do I know my gender? Because I reject a lot of the social constructs attributed to women. This is a genuine question, I am honestly puzzled.

I think that gender is a social construct. But just because it is a construct doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Plenty of people reject the stereotypes that go along with the construct. Some people find it very difficult to deal with the way they are viewed because of their sex, and I think it's perfectly understandable that they want to identify with the other sex so that they don't have to deal with the expectations etc that society imposes on them. (Unhappiness with your body might be part of it too, but that can also be separate to general gender dysphoria.)

But where I struggle is that a lot of the rhetoric now ends up reinforcing gender stereotypes and I can't see how that is helpful for anyone.

I have school reports from pre school that refer to my awkwardness around boys and the fact I was much more comfortable around girls. At playtime I was skipping with the girls rather than playing with the boys.

I am a woman-born-woman and have school reports that reference my discomfort around girls and how I would only play with boys. I don't really see how that can be used as evidence/pointing to anything.

It's surely not that uncommon an experience.

"Society needs to become more accepting of diversity"

That poses an interesting question..... would I still want to transition if society accepted me for who I am.

I love clothes shopping, I knit and sew, I socialise only with women, I love makeup and getting my nails done and dozens more thanks like that. I think and feel like a woman but if society accepted that I could be that way and still be a man would I do so...... possibly I wouldn't transition.

However at the minute I chose to transition because I cannot function as gender male and sex female. Gender dysphoria is a horrific condition that you wouldnt wish on your worst enemy. 41% of people with gender dysphoria have attempted suicide at least once and Ive been one of that statistic. That is why personally I cant accept a cross dresser who wants to adopt the same label as me. I wouldnt wish being transsexual on my worst enemy.

ButchRestingFace

I don't really see how that can be used as evidence/pointing to anything.

As I said this things on their own dont. Its the combination of putting everything together.

For example I once heard it said that everyone has traits of autism - it doesnt mean they are autistic. It is the quantity and severity of the factors that give the diagnosis. Gender dysphoria is the same. Everyone crosses the line at times into actions and activities that are typically associated with the opposite sex but when you spend your whole life on the other side of the line than it becomes significant, especially when coupled with a significant impact on mental health.

That is why personally I cant accept a cross dresser who wants to adopt the same label as me

Have you met many cross-dressers who want to be seen as trans women then? I'll admit the cross-dressers I've met haven't felt they were women, wanted to be women, or wanted to go about their daily lives as women. They've simply been well up for a bit of dress-up in the bedroom. But I can't exactly profess to having met all that many, or having much contact with the trans community in general, so I'd be interested to hear your experiences.

I don't think you mean to be offensive, but I really do find the phrase " I think and feel like a woman" to be massively problematic. There is no 'way' that all women think and feel like.

As much as I think the world would be better without them, stereotyped gender roles are a thing we currently have.

I don't think you mean to be offensive, but I really do find the phrase " I think and feel like a woman" to be massively problematic. There is no 'way' that all women think and feel like

I think and feel like a woman. I accept that not everyone does though.

As much as I think the world would be better without them, stereotyped gender roles are a thing we currently have.

They really are. We're all in the same boat here; to my mind we can't blame people for living in the world the way it is now, and right now that means a world where "living as a man" and "living as a woman" would conjure up different images to your average person on the street.

I think and feel like a woman. I accept that not everyone does though.

Me too. And, me too.

@wexhamtrans - I think your post is very insightful, and I share your belief that more acceptance in society might well mean fewer people feeling that they must transition.

Speaking for myself, I would accept you exactly as you are, whether you transition or not, and I would hope we could be friends (I too love knitting, sewing and shopping, and doing my nails - and I’m sure we have other things in common too). And if someone wants to transition, I will accept them for who they are - I have a friend who transitioned (they had all the medical and surgical treatment and I used the name and pronoun they chose).

I think people should be able to transition and be accepted, if that is their choice - but I don’t think it should be at the expense of the rights and safety of women and girls. There has to be a way for everyone’s rights and needs to be respected without women being erased, without lesbians being accused of transphobia for not wanting PIV sex with trans women who still have a functioning penis, without trans women using their physical advantages to take over women’s sports, and where reasonable discussion on the issues can happen without people like me being called TERFs and trans activists saying it is great to bash a TERF, and without animosity from the other side too.

So, as I was saying, there is no 'way' that all women think and feel like, and we each have no way of knowing how anyone else thinks. I could no more say that I think/feel like a man than I could say I think/feel like a bat.

And, we all know that assumptions about how women think and feel have been used to discriminated against women since the dawn of time. It's something I actively reject, that there is some unifying mental condition that all women share. No. We are all people. People are all different and unique, and no assumptions should be made about someone based on their sex.

Shania Twain earworm

"Have you met many cross-dressers who want to be seen as trans women then? "

By the definition of transgenderism cross dressers ARE transgender women (and I disagree by the way). Transgender includes not just transsexual but also cross dressers. If you give rights to transgender people to access women only spaces then it's not just the transsexual people you give those right to..... it's also the cross dressers.

FWIW I have met cross dressers who declare themselves trans and seek access to women only spaces even though the identify as male.

For example I once heard it said that everyone has traits of autism - it doesnt mean they are autistic. Totally nothing to do with this thread, but you are probably best not repeating that little nugget. It is possibly one of the most offensive things to say about or to autistic people. Im not slating you saying it because Ive heard it countless times and if you dont know any it was offensive you dont know.

ha yes, I always get a Shania Twain earworm on these threads too

“I feel that the question ‘what is a woman’ is therfore under the umbrella of whataboutary however most of us will answer it to some degree (weather you accept it or not is another matter) whereas you all don’t seem to want to answer any questions. Some debate.”

What questions do you want answered?

I asked that several pages ago Betrand but....