To think mumsnet is full of hate crime?

[Whyisthisacceptable]

The whole active thread list is always taken up by tons of trans bashing threads. How is it acceptable? Anything relating to anyone transgender is bashed. If this was against another minority of people, race, sexuality, religion it would be taken down and reported as hate crime. I don’t understand how the feminism board makes it acceptable?

Yes, with a bit of poetic licence I must say.

I'm adding my interpretation, correct.

Exclude them from where? Transwomen have always used female toilets. WTF are you talking about?

Some have actually said they don't want any transwomen at all in toilets though so I'm assuming that's what the poster meant.
If you point out that transwomen have always used female toilets, you get "so if they've been doing it by stealth that doesn't make it any better, they shouldn't be in there."
Actually said on a thread. Which no-one disagreed with, or at least said "hang on a minute..."

@weetabix I don't agree with self ID then you are as much "transphobic" as all those you are slating! There is not sliding scale of transphobia. You either capitulate to everything they demand, regardless if it flies in the face of science or common sense, or you dont. If you dont, then you are transphobic. You dont get to hold any high ground because in your mind your less transphobic than others.

anyone gender critical on Mumsnet is actually full of transphobic hate crime.

People who are gender critical, although I don't agree with them, I can understand their argument and they are not necessarily transphobic. I do think some will be using their gender critical views to hide their transphobic views as I have come across people in real life who do this.

Verbeena as you are still here could you please answer my point about 'feeling like a woman' as a definition of 'woman'?

You know what fucks me off . Women every day (or every other day to be accurate ) get murdered by men . Men they know . In this country .

That’s what worries and concerns me . I see it , hear it , read it . All the time

If we channelled this energy towards this issue just think of what could be accomplished . This is a way bigger issue than trans stuff , and has a far wider societal potential

Yet when we do try and talk about these things, we are shouted down with cries of "but what about the men who are abused!"* and "you're just a man hating feminazi who thinks all men are abusers!"

Even India Willoughby claimed they felt sorry for men and it had been a tough year for them when the discussion of how many women had been killed by male partners came up .

*Of course these people never actually do anything to help abused men themselves. It's just another way to get women to STFU.

You dont get to hold any high ground because in your mind your less transphobic than others.

Yes. If you are against self-id you are 'transphobic' I'm afraid. Soz.

The reason the threads discussing trans issues/self-ID are spreading across Mumsnet, and other sites, is because people are finally recognising that there is an issue that needs discussing.

Most people are unaware of the proposed changes that will result in self-ID but when made aware and questioned on the topic 2/3rds of people are against the proposals.

fairplayforwomen.com/poll/

It’s a good thing to be able to talk openly and hear both sides of the arguement, rather than having “transphobic” shouted at us and having GC speakers at university’s no platformed to try and stifle debate.

Some have actually said they don't want any transwomen at all in toilets though so I'm assuming that's what the poster meant.

And tbh, I can completely understand this in recent years with the definition of trans expanding and the ridiculous behaviour of trans activists. Even I myself am a lot more wary about transwomen in female toilets despite previously not caring. You can blame trans rights activists for that.

People who are gender critical, although I don't agree with them, I can understand their argument and they are not necessarily transphobic. I do think some will be using their gender critical views to hide their transphobic views as I have come across people in real life who do this.

I completely agree with you here, I don't think everyone who is gender critical is transphobic. I don't think everyone who is anti-self-ID is transphobic, or even everyone who thinks prisons and sports should be unilaterally segregated based on the sex you were registered as at birth. I may not agree, but I don't think that's necessarily transphobia.

But I do think a few posters stray into transphobic sentiments, and I do think a few posters are transphobic behind their views, or perhaps as a result of following them to an extreme conclusion. And some I think were transphobes long before this debate heated up, and have found a way to express that under the umbrella of gender critical feminism.

Most aren't transphobic I reckon, but the fact that all of these subtlely different views appear to come together under one banner on MN does give the appearance of legitimised transphobia, and sometimes it's a very fine line. I know I wouldn't want to moderate it!

" I don't agree with self ID then you are as much "transphobic" as all those you are slating! There is not sliding scale of transphobia. You either capitulate to everything they demand, regardless if it flies in the face of science or common sense, or you dont. If you dont, then you are transphobic."

Then I'm transphobic which I must admit is quite a surprise given that I'm a trans woman !

Self ID is dangerous rubbish...that's coming from a trans person!

You do not and should not capitulate to modern transgenderism. Its a hijacked term that not only erases women but ironically erases transsexual women like myself.

For me the massive issue is that gender dysphoria, a significant and debilitating mental health issue gets absorbed into sexual fetishism and predatory opportunists.

Even India Willoughby claimed they felt sorry for men and it had been a tough year for them

India Willoughby is a she. But it never happens. Oh no....

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest that only one challenged a man in frocks comment.

That entirely depends on who is wearing the frock.
if it was a person born as a boy, who as an adult had full surgery and hormone treatment, I would respect them as being a genuine transwoman. I'd allow them to access women's spaces, as they are unlikely to be any harm to the women there.

If it was just an ordinary man inside the frock I'd describe them as a man in a frock since that is exactly what they were. But I wouldn't call them that in the street because it's offensive to jeer at anyone, regardless of their nature.

I know the thread has moved on a bit, but can someone tell me what the purpose would be in separating facilities by gender instead of sex? What's the reason for having separate toilets for people who feel feminine and people who feel masculine? Surely if you don't agree with sex-segregation your argument should be to make all the facilities mixed-sex.

I'm also rather dismayed by some posters' objection to the use of 'they' or initials instead of pronouns which refer to sex. That is already a compromise. That is avoiding the 'misgendering' which is apparently so distressing. But it isn't good enough. You want to compel us to write or say something which goes against our own beliefs - which to us, would be a lie.

Yes. If you are against self-id you are 'transphobic' I'm afraid. Soz.

That's just not true, but it is a great way of forcing people to polarise; you're either fully on "their" team... or you're on ours.

Sorry, it's just not true. We're all allowed nuance in our viewpoints and you can't corall people into "sides" in your imaginary fight.

"I can completely understand this in recent years with the definition of trans expanding and the ridiculous behaviour of trans activists. Even I myself am a lot more wary about transwomen in female toilets despite previously not caring. You can blame trans rights activists for that."

I personally do blame the trans activists for what's going on at the minute. These idiots need to realise that they are erasing transsexual people (the very people they claim to represent) and fetishizing what is often a mental health issue.

I personally believe that a lot of trans activism is actively harmful to some people who have been gathered in under the trans umbrella.

It's really important to debate trans issues openly and to challenge the ideas of people with limited life experience who are keen to show how woke they are.

That's not transphobic.

Nor is it a hate crime.

That's just not true, but it is a great way of forcing people to polarise; you're either fully on "their" team... or you're on ours.

Fair Play for Women have been campaigning against a change to the GRA which would allow Self-ID.

They have been fairly widely dismissed as 'transphobic'. Their arguements against self-id have been dismissed as 'hate speech'. By many.

In your mind you are not transphobic but in the minds of many you would be. I guess it depends on the definition of transphobia.

That's just not true, but it is a great way of forcing people to polarise; you're either fully on "their" team... or you're on ours

Agree, as I refuse to be on the extremist end of either side.

Verbeena if you are not going to answer my point above, then that's fine, I don't really give a shit.

However, please don't then flit from thread to thread spouting absolute bull crap about how 'people don't engage' and 'its the right answer or no answer with these people'. Because you know its bollocks and yet you still do it anyway.

Thanks.

What point?

back atcha

The reason the threads discussing trans issues/self-ID are spreading across Mumsnet, and other sites, is because people are finally recognising that there is an issue that needs discussing.

In addition to this, the reason you see so much discussion here is because MN is one of the very few places where you're even allowed to discuss this without being deleted, banned, shut down, etc. Most places online will quickly censor you if you dare to disagree with any of this, no matter how politely and respectfully you disagree.

A poster on another certain popular UK based forum was banned and had her sensible posts about how it doesn't matter if male brains and female brains are different because 50% of the population will still be discriminated against and oppressed because they have a vagina. Meanwhile posters posting misogynistic and homophobic crap are allowed to stay.

Tbh the fact that people who disagree with this are being no platformed and silenced just speaks volumes and was actually one of the things that opened my eyes. Why aren't we allowed to discuss this? Can you think of any other proposed law changes that people weren't allowed to discuss and only one side of the argument was allowed to be presented? Because I can't.

If we look at when same sex marriage was being discussed and debated for instance, people who disagreed with it were still allowed to speak and get their views across. Obviously I completely disagree with these people but nobody told them they should shut up or tried to silence them. All views were taken into consideration.

Yet with this we aren't allowed to discuss it at all. It's actually very sinister.

What point?

Lol, nice try. The point I have made several times in the last couple of pages of this thread, directly to you. About the innate sense of being a woman being the definition of a woman.

I'm. Trying. To. Engage. With. You.

Rat, the first time I tried to engage on this at all, before I was even really aware of the FWR board or much background, I tentatively suggested that self-id seemed to be open to abuse by dodgy men. I got told to fuck off, that I was a terf, that I was advocating violence againt trans people.

When I said that the tone of the debate on both sides seemed to be full of acrimony and bitterness, I was told that there are no sides, and to even think so is transphobic. There is no middle ground, because to even debate the issues is doubting trans people.

It was at this point that I really got concerned about what was happening. I hadn't heard of terminology like "cotton ceiling" before. I hadn't been aware quite how much trans ideologies were reinforcing gender stereotypes. The only reason I have ended up on these boards discussing trans issues is because of the frankly scary attitude from trans activists.

I am glad they were deleted. But I think other posters should actually make a point and tell these people they disagree with them and their posts are not welcome, as well as reporting them
Completely agree with this, people shout ‘we’re not transphobic, only some of us are extreme!’ But I’ve very rarely seen transphobia questioned on here by GC people. A few pages back, someone called India willoughby a man and ‘he’ in the middle of a debate of GC posters saying they will use they and initials as not to be offensive, yet didn’t question this.
Why is it acceptable to call someone who has had full surgery and hormones and has lived as a woman for a long time a man. It’s just not.
Just like you keep saying transwoman can’t feel like a woman because they don’t know what that is, you don’t know what they feel. Genuine transsexuals such as wrexham will have most likely home gone through a pretty shit time, a lot of medical interventions and most likely faced hostility for her gender identity, it is not fair to dismiss this by calling her a ‘man’ a ‘man with a fetish’ or a ‘bloke in a frock’

Once you start going down the routes of name calling, deliberate alienation and finding a problem with everything transgender people do and are - You’ve lost the moral high ground imo and your fight loses its meaning.