To think mumsnet is full of hate crime?

[Whyisthisacceptable]

The whole active thread list is always taken up by tons of trans bashing threads. How is it acceptable? Anything relating to anyone transgender is bashed. If this was against another minority of people, race, sexuality, religion it would be taken down and reported as hate crime. I don’t understand how the feminism board makes it acceptable?

It's a lot easier for Verbeena to just castigate people for wrongthink than to engage and discuss the issues. I haven't seen them offer anything positive to the discussion.

Well we know why. Some people really are desperate to silence women. We all know that's what this is really about

Err OK !
You know what fucks me off . Women every day (or every other day to be accurate ) get murdered by men . Men they know . In this country .

That’s what worries and concerns me . I see it , hear it , read it . All the time

If we channelled this energy towards this issue just think of what could be accomplished . This is a way bigger issue than trans stuff , and has a far wider societal potential

Feels like a waste

Interesting that the OP has chosen to start their thread in AIBU, rather than in the feminism chat topic where most of the ‘hate crime’ hmm is purportedly going on……….

Not really - seeing as out here you're going to get a more balanced view and less likely to be personally attacked (or if you do, you're not in the echo chamber so there is a few more voices with you.)

Something which puzzles me a bit here- I have seen on MN threads where posters are debating loos and changing rooms etc and whether trans can use them, the argument is told that TRA believe it actively harms transpersons to be told they not allowed to use their preferred gender loo.

Can I just ask transpersons on here or TRA, what does that "harm" look like? How does it actually trigger you to be told to use the loo of your birth sex? Honestly not being snarky, just wanting to know and understand.

for example, I have CPTSD and BPD/EUPD. Certain things trigger me because I grew up in in invalidating and abusive household. The triggers can cause me extreme reactions of panic, fear, even urges to harm myself, rage, angry outbursts. If a transperson gets their gender invalidated, how would it cause them to feel or react?

I’ve read a couple of very interesting threads on Twitter recently by young trans identifying men.

Their twitter handles are @Kinesis and @FionneOrlander. They both speak a great deal of sense. I’d recommend people on this thread shouting “transphobe” look them up.

Personally, I’m done with justifying why women should have sex segregated spaces. I don’t have to justify it, it’s a right I already have - if you think I shouldn’t have it any more it’s up to you to explain why that improves things for me. Or at least how it maintains the status quo.

I've engaged before "meaningfully" but it is literally pointless.
If you don't answer "right" to "what is a woman tho?!" you get derp try again.

Very few threads keep discussion civil, but it has and can happen on this site.
There was a very interesting one a few weeks ago which didn't descend into the circle of "define woman" posts.

Not just about trans issues either, so many other threads follow the same path.

So you're never going to agree on the definition of a woman? So what? That doesn't stop discussion on self-id, prisons, sports. If you're only argument is TWAW then yes it is pointless.

It is their only argument.

There are radicals in every group though, and unfortunately these are the people currently shouting the loudest.I won't be told how to refer to myself though. That's up to me alone

I do agree there's radicals in every group, and that includes on here which is why they shout loudest on the feminist board.
I personally don't like the word cis, so would prefer not to be called it.
As you say, it's up to personal choice. If we want to be respected and not called cis though, surely the same should go the other way round and not deliberately and constantly use wrong pronouns for transpeople? (not saying you do btw, just in general)

If you don't answer "right" to "what is a woman tho?!" you get derp try again.

No you don't. You are asked to expand on and further back up your argument, as per a grown up debate. If you are unable to do that, well that's your problem, but don't be disingenous about it.

VerbeenaBeeks When people use the word discrimination, to me it conjures up images of people refusing jobs or housing to Transpersons or subjecting them to abuse, even attacking them physically simply because they are trans.

I honestly do not think questioning the right of transwomen to use womens' refuges or prisons as being the same thing- because those posters raising concerns about women's safety are not raising these concerns because they hate transpersons. They are doing it out of valid concerns for women. Surely that is not the same thing.

It is like the "gay cake" case. The baker was not refusing service to gay customers. They would have no problem serving a birthday cake or a split tin loaf to a gay couple. They just did not want to make a cake endorsing gay marriage. Therefore, not bigotry. See the difference?

Transperson gets refused a job or sacked from their job because they come out as trans. They tangibly suffer because they suffer loss of earnings

Transperson gets beaten up on the street for being trans. They tangibly suffer with a broken rib, black eyes and concussion. They may suffer PTSD and feel afraid to go out alone. They suffer tangible harm.

Transperson gets misgendered by someone once or told they cannot use the loo of their preferred gender. But do they suffer tangible harm beyond feeling slighted or upset?

If we want to be respected and not called cis though, surely the same should go the other way round and not deliberately and constantly use wrong pronouns for transpeople?

It's funny, women are constantly 'cissed' and told there is nothing offensive about it because 'it's just a descriptor'. And yet calling someone who has a male body, including cock and balls an man isn't 'just a descriptor'?

It's funny, women are constantly 'cissed' and told there is nothing offensive about it because 'it's just a descriptor'. And yet calling someone who has a male body, including cock and balls an man isn't 'just a descriptor'?

For me, cis does sound offensive, I'm not cis. I'm a woman. End of, and I wouldn't like being referred to as a cis woman.
If you were to repeatedly call a transwoman a man even if they've had surgery or are awaiting surgery, that would be offensive too.

If you were to repeatedly call a transwoman a man even if they've had surgery or are awaiting surgery, that would be offensive too.

What about if they weren't awaiting surgery or hadn't had any? Would it be OK to call them a man then? Is surgery the criteria for being a woman?

Avegemite there does seem to be a double standard, doesn't there? We have to put up with being called cis, but if anyone misgenders a transperson, all hell breaks loose.

Surely real equity is believing that no group should have special rights over another group. And the privelege argument does not work here, considering how hard "cis" women have it. Completely different to race or disability.

I was on a thread yesterday regarding a 'trans woman'. I didn't agree with many posters, but I could understand their views.

Amongst the reasonable posters though, there were a couple of really offensive comments. Something about 'gender bender' and another saying 'men in frocks'. I did ask twice why none of the reasonable posters, who held different views to me but claimed not to be anti trans, didn't tell these people to shut up. I pointed out that it was these people with their offensive comments that made others think they were also anti trans but only one person said they thought the comments were bad. I finally left when I was told that wanting 'equality for all' was 'a shit goal for anyone to have.'

I won't be going back to the thread. I deleted the feminism topic a while ago for the same reason but this one was in another topic. I think they realise people are deleting feminism, they are not getting the arguments they want, so they are slowly spreading over to other topics.

Posting this for the umpteenth time

Real equity and fairness is making sure that no group has special rights or privileges over another group. Identity politics has destroyed this concept.

I have no issues with transpersons having EQUAL rights. The same rights as "cis" persons. It is when their rights get put above the rights of women that it bothers me.

why isn't calling a woman a bitch or a slag a hate crime? why is misgendering so special?

Verbena - you say 'cis' sounds offensive to you, you are a woman, yet you don't want to describe what being a woman is.

For me, it's biology. I'm 6'2'', built like a rugby player, no interest in heels, lipstick etc. I like heavy metal music and used to ride a motorbike. But I have the biological attributes of a woman - uterus, vagina, vulva, xx chromosomes, I menstruate etc. I have no idea what other women feel like - I just know what I feel like. My sex is down to biology alone.

On a side note, do you think employers will start employing transwomen so they can fulfil their equality requirements without having to put up with those pesky transwomen going off and getting pregnant and having to pay maternity leave etc. Or is that a transphobic thought.

I won't be going back to the thread. I deleted the feminism topic a while ago for the same reason but this one was in another topic. I think they realise people are deleting feminism, they are not getting the arguments they want, so they are slowly spreading over to other topics

Yeah, I think that's why they're spreading over here so much lately. There's a lot of people saying they're hiding the board or trying to delete it off altogether.
Doesn't surprise me in the slightest that only one challenged a man in frocks comment.

' I think they realise people are deleting feminism, they are not getting the arguments they want, so they are slowly spreading over to other topics'

Did you read the opening post?????