To think mumsnet is full of hate crime?

[Whyisthisacceptable]

The whole active thread list is always taken up by tons of trans bashing threads. How is it acceptable? Anything relating to anyone transgender is bashed. If this was against another minority of people, race, sexuality, religion it would be taken down and reported as hate crime. I don’t understand how the feminism board makes it acceptable?

I don't think all TW are a risk or anyway near. I don't really care much about the sex offenders or how they were compiled. I don't really care if TW want to share a bathroom with me. I do care if other women don't want that though.

I don't think TW should ever be housed in a womens prison because they're not women, they are transwomen. Simple as. No hate here.

So you are willing to exclude the whole group in order to save us from the minority?

I am sick to death of "exclusion" of transwomen - or any other male-bodied person - from women's space being treated as if it were equivalent to being shoved out of an airlock. There are no human rights consequences to transwomen from not being given access to women's spaces. Plenty can and do use men's facilities every day without incident - ask Pips Bunce and Natasha Kennedy. Transwomen already have more access to space and public life than women do, because they have mostly lived their lives as male.

"Exclusion" of male people from women's spaces doesn't mean they don't have access to any space at all. Most of the world is a male space. They have access to all of that.

Are you all lobbying to prevent the immigration of working-class Muslim men because one "honour" murder or forced marriage is too many? If not, why not?

Ah. Whatabouttery. Classic diversionary tactic.

I'm so grateful that women have a space to discuss this issue-no matter what your stance on it, because elsewhere the debate is just shut down. This is the big issue of our time and to not debate it would be wrong.

So OP, while I disagree with you, I'm pleased that mumsnet is a place you can come and read all about it and express your own views on it. No matter what you think, which side of the debate you're on, you've got to agree that this Is good thing?

I use disabled toilets but were I to use a female toilet would anyone really have an issue knowing I was diagnosed, on HRT, had breasts and therefore was vulnerable in a male environment and had been castrated ?

Sadly the impression that I get on here is that yes they would have a problem with that. The argument is that if you aren't born female then you have no place using facilities meant for females. Their argument is that you should either campaign for a third space or address the fact that you would feel unsafe in the men's facilities.

Personally I find this argument abhorrent. I don't agree with self ID but I find the anti trans sentiment disgusting. As other posters have said, swap any other group with the word trans and people would be aghast eg

A man from X religion attacked someone, therefore anyone belonging to X religion is banned from coming in here.

This woman from Y race did this. Therefore Y race people are now banned.

You couldn't say these things. So why can you say it about trans men and women?

I've never read anything on here suggesting hate except for the screenshots of Twitter posts by transrights activists.

It isn't a hate crime to talk about protecting women's spaces.

A hate crime has to actually be a crime first. Just having a different opinion or talking about biology isn't a crime yet . Physical attacks, threats of violence, hoax calls, bullying if individuals, harassment of individuals, arson, and malicious complaints are crimes already, and are hate crimes if the victim is targeted due to a protected characteristic.

This woman from Y race did this. Therefore Y race people are now banned.

Because that's not being said. What's being said is you can't change your sex and there are good reasons to have sex segregated spaces.

Sadly the impression that I get on here is that yes they would have a problem with that.

Mumsnet isn't a hive mind. It's thousands of posters. Most are somewhere in there middle. A few are at the extreme sides of the debate, all are entitled to express opinions.

And yes some people will have the opinion no one born male should ever be in female spaces. That opinion is their right.

The law and the majority will probably never reflect that extreme opinion, ending up in midground.

Discussing it is not hate crime.

Weetabix, I think those arguments are normally in response to trans activists claiming that there is no threat to women from trans people in women's spaces, when there are plenty of examples where there has been abuse. That is not claiming that all trans people are a threat. And your point could be equally be used to say that there is no reason to exclude men at all from women's spaces.

As I've said upthread, I personally don't agree with the "no trans ever" position, but I can see why it has arisen. And wrexhamtrans has articulated pretty clearly why they are concerned about the backlash towards transsexuals.

I use disabled toilets but were I to use a female toilet would anyone really have an issue knowing I was diagnosed, on HRT, had breasts and therefore was vulnerable in a male environment and had been castrated ?

Because that doesn't make sense. It's saying men as a class are a risk to women as a class (or those presenting as women) so the class of women should have to permit more people born of the male class into womens spaces..

The average transsexual in real life, in my experience is against Self ID currently and is growing increasingly worried at the backlash this is creating with the respect they've built up over the years.

Ahh, but transsexuals are quite a small group under the "trans umbrella" now. They are being thrown under the bus by the trans activist ideologies and approach,

Because that's not being said.

That is exactly what is being said - trans women should not be allowed into women's spaces because of Karen White and a very few other trans women who have committed similar crimes. It's exactly as my example - take a tiny number of people and then extrapolate to cover a whole group.

A few are at the extreme sides of the debate, all are entitled to express opinions.

And it's those posters, with their extreme views, who feature very heavily on these threads. Anyone attempting to disagree is shouted down, accused of being a plant, a man, a handmaiden and so on.

An alternative view is simply not allowed. Hence the accusation that the feminist boards are an echo chamber.

It's clear from the views of some posters that they do not accept any trans people at all in women's facilities. That, to me, is phobic.

The OP could have educated and a discussion could have taken place but instead there is a lot of patronising and ganging up. Not all the posts on trans threads are ‘transphobic’ but the tone is exclusionary of anyone who wants a debate without being ridiculed with in jokes and snide comments.

Trans women are not excluded because of the actions of Karen White and others, they are excluded because they are MALE. Trans men are welcome to use these facilities if they want to because they are FEMALE. It's that simple.

That is exactly what is being said - trans women should not be allowed into women's spaces because of Karen White and a very few other trans women who have committed similar crimes. It's exactly as my example - take a tiny number of people and then extrapolate to cover a whole group.

Isn't the exactly the same as what we do with other safeguarding policies?. We do a DSB check to see past convictions. Most people don't have those, but on off chance this person does. Sex offender registration, on the off chance the new teacher you want to hire is on it. Are you saying we have to do away with these as well, as it is a small group that are on there as well.

Or do we say for the safety and dignity of people we stick to these checks, registration and sex segregation to keep vulnerable women and children safe?

I am sick to death of "exclusion" of transwomen - or any other male-bodied person - from women's space being treated as if it were equivalent to being shoved out of an airlock

Excellent analogy.

No. I'll explain again. TW are not being excluded because of Karen White, they're excluded because they're not female and it should never have been suggested that they access the female spaces in the first place.

"Exclusion" of male people from women's spaces doesn't mean they don't have access to any space at all. Most of the world is a male space. They have access to all of that.

I feel exactly the same when trans people claim they “don’t feel safe” in the presence of someone who won’t agree that TWAW. There’s a serious need for some resilience-building here.

Sadly the impression that I get on here is that yes they would have a problem with that. The argument is that if you aren't born female then you have no place using facilities meant for females

I certainly have a problem with it. I support safe space for transpeople - just not women’s space.

I’ve seen others agree that that biological males - irrespective of penis/hormonal status - should not use women’s facilities. But equally, I’ve seen a lot of posters state that they no have no issue with castrated transwomen using female facilities.

There are lots of views on the subject. At least on this site people have the opportunity to discuss those views. Social media is virtually a no-fly zone if you don’t toe the party line but value your job, etc.

We do a DSB check to see past convictions. Most people don't have those, but on off chance this person does. Sex offender registration, on the off chance the new teacher you want to hire is on it. Are you saying we have to do away with these as well, as it is a small group that are on there as well.

How is that in anyway the same? Every individual, regardless of sex, gender, race or religion, applying for certain positions has to have a DBS check. If certain convictions are disclosed, pertaining to the individual, then they will not be employed in that post.

In the example that I gave all people from a group are banned because of the actions of a few.

So to use your DBS example, all people from a group would be disallowed because a few had a criminal record. Would that be ok? No it wouldn't.

Weetabixandshreddies

I use disabled toilets but were I to use a female toilet would anyone really have an issue knowing I was diagnosed, on HRT, had breasts and therefore was vulnerable in a male environment and had been castrated ?

Sadly the impression that I get on here is that yes they would have a problem with that. The argument is that if you aren't born female then you have no place using facilities meant for females. Their argument is that you should either campaign for a third space or address the fact that you would feel unsafe in the men's facilities.

You can't seem to make your mind up. You're saying women shouldn't fear a small number of male bodied persons or 'tar them all with the same brush'. Yet here you're supporting a TW saying she doesn't feel safe in male spaces. Shouldn't you be telling her not all men are like that then?

No. I'll explain again. TW are not being excluded because of Karen White, they're excluded because they're not female and it should never have been suggested that they access the female spaces in the first place.

So your problem (and not just you, many others expressed it too) is that transwoman should never be allowed to be seen as female. Your issue is not self ID, you’ve had a problem with transsexuals the whole time. You’re just now allowed to express your hate in the open because you can join on a bandwagon that’s doing it too? Kind of like a racist that previously had to keep their mouth closed, but then joined the BNP and thought - great, let’s make it so this is for the good of the country rather than my own prejudice.

Imagine being so sure you was born as the wrong sex that you was severely depressed your whole life but women only thought you did it because you wanted to destroy all of their rights

How utterly naive. Or goady.

Not naive or goady, just someone sharing their experience that you are just dismissing. The thread point proven.