To think mumsnet is full of hate crime?

[Whyisthisacceptable]

The whole active thread list is always taken up by tons of trans bashing threads. How is it acceptable? Anything relating to anyone transgender is bashed. If this was against another minority of people, race, sexuality, religion it would be taken down and reported as hate crime. I don’t understand how the feminism board makes it acceptable?

Verbena, I think some people are wanting to exclude all trans from womens spaces because they've seen that there is no compromise from the trans activists. I don't agree with it personally but i can see why people have come to that conclusion.

If believing that gender is a social construct and sex is a biological reality is a “hate crime”, then I’m a walking felony. 🖐 🤚

If there is no reason to sex segregate as posters above seem to suggest then we should stop doing it. Then however transwomen would be in facilities with men who they state are a danger to them. So it doesn't make any sense. If women are as dangerous as men then why would transwomen feel safer in female facilities.
Transwomen feel at risk from male violence, and that is indisputably true but when women say the same they are misguided and 'women are violent too'. The irony is that those who most loudly state TWAW treat those two groups utterly differently.

^If there is no reason to sex segregate as posters above seem to suggest then we should stop doing it. Then however transwomen would be in facilities with men who they state are a danger to them. So it doesn't make any sense. If women are as dangerous as menhmm then why would transwomen feel safer in female facilities.
Transwomen feel at risk from male violence, and that is indisputably true but when women say the same they are misguided and 'women are violent too'. The irony is that those who most loudly state TWAW treat those two groups utterly differently.^

Spot on.

What is chemical castration? For many women the line will be drawn, I suspect, at the possession or otherwise of a penis. And for every transsexual women who takes herself off to a cubicle and does her business quietly, won’t there be two Twitter warriors without dysphoria (or worse) who pee with the door open, and make sure other women there see their penis (as that is what they are getting a kick from).
The discomfort and threat women may feel from having penises in what should be a safe space for them should not be ignored. We aren’t the ones who taught us to fear them after all.

"some people are wanting to exclude all trans from womens spaces because they've seen that there is no compromise from the trans activists"

Absolutely right!

And despite being trans myself I can't fault that argument. When it's being pushed in your face that cross dressing makes you a woman and self identifying makes you a woman then taking then distancing yourself from all trans is only natural.

To use an analogy if youre going to kick the dog you can't then complain when the dog bites you..... trans activists have been kicking for years and now act surprised that what they have actually done is remove tolerance of transsexual people.

We now end up with a bizarre label of transgender that straddles both medical issue and sexual fetish !!

But the constant repetition of statistics and crime every time the argument comes up

When women raised concerns about self ID meaning sexually predatory males accessing women's spaces they were told 'don't worry, it will never happen'
Now that it is happening, women are told not to talk about these instances because that is hateful.

And saying people should not use statistics (in other words evidence) to make their case it no better than Donald Trump crying 'fake news'.

If you have evidence and fact based argument to disagree with the statistics, state that. But just to state, in any way, that it is evidence of hatred for someone to use stats and evidence to make their case is completely bogus.

Yes OP, YANBU. MN, especially the Feminist Chat page, is a bastion of anti trans rhetoric, wrapped in a claim to be woman-supporting. In fact this trans'phobia' often functions to hurt women, including trans women, the mothers of trans children, the friends of trans people, and women who do not present as stereotypically female.

As a lesbian woman who supports trans people I am often told I can't be a real woman or that a man must have told me what to say. Ridiculous.

The arguments are well worn. For example, presenting statistics relating to suicidal ideation can lead to claims that the presenter is irresponsible for making the anti-trans denyer feel guilty for helping to create a hostile environment for trans people!

The MN transphobia reporting and moderation mechanism is entirely inadequate. I report as often as I can but I can't keep up with the avalanche of hatred.

I won't go on but just wanted to lend my support.

What is chemical castration? For many women the line will be drawn, I suspect, at the possession or otherwise of a penis

For me it’s not even that, it’s the fact that a transwoman is still a biological male and likely to be physically stronger than the average female.

It isn’t a penis that can murder or beat a woman to a pulp.

I’d support safe space for transpeople, but that would be additional space, not encroachment on women’s space.

*denier, not denyer

"What is chemical castration? For many women the line will be drawn, I suspect, at the possession or otherwise of a penis."

I ama transgender woman.

I am castrated through medication.

Yes I have a "meat and two veg" as one poster calls it. I am soon to have the two veg surgically removed. I am completely impotent and have absolutely no sexual desires at all.

I no longer have sex of any kind with my partner never mind desire to expose myself! Before the hormones kicked in an erection would give me a panic attack and make me physically ill.

The "meat" under the influence of Oestrogen shrinks significantly and I am delighted that it has. I have wrestled for years with a strong desire to self mutilate because I hate having a penis so much....its a birth defect that needs corrected.

I do agree with what wrexhamtrans has said, it is good to have that insight from a transsexual woman. There does seem to be an extremist vocal minority of trans that have no issues with getting along with natal women or women's issues, and all for shouting down women's genuine concerns and worries with 'bigot' and 'transphobe'. Even though they say they are women, they still retain their male genitalia, and use it as a virtual club to batter women down. They use their male priviledge and power, to get women to put up and shut up, and that is what I have issue with.

They are not interested in open dialogue, or discussion and are not willing to see women's genuine concerns. That is part of being a women that they don't like, you can't pick and choose the parts of women you like or don't like. The government are bowing down to this vocal minority, whilst pushing women aside and being the TRAs mouthpiece.

"a transwoman is still a biological male and likely to be physically stronger than the average female."

Without hormones you are correct.

With Oestrogen however muscle mass significantly decreases and body fat redistributes.

I go to a gym regularly and have consistently had to reduce the weights that I do as the hormone levels built up.

Unforrunately I'm not sure it's a minority aeroflot.

wrexhamtrans

Really interesting and good to hear the perspective of a genuine transwoman. Hope that doesn't sound patronising!

I think some MNetters believe that your average transwoman is like Karen White or Ian Huntley. It is important to realise that transpeople are as diverse in their experiences and outlook as the rest of us. the whole trans community is not a hive mind

Hormone levels don't change the fact that TW are still likely to be bigger and stronger than women. Same as TM are usually much smaller and weaker than men despite nebido injections.

Bone density, lung capacity, size, strength, the skeletal form etc etc are different between the sexes.

I'm not sure it's a minority aeroflot.
There's a minority of very sinister people pushing self ID, Mra's with no interest in trans rights using it to keep women in their place, With a group of young follows being puppeted to cause trouble.

The average transsexual in real life, in my experience is against Self ID currently and is growing increasingly worried at the backlash this is creating with the respect they've built up over the years.

But i’ve not seen a single post where anyone has claimed all Transwomen/transmen are evil/dangerous/etc

What they do say is that transwomen are men, and men as a class are dangerous.

I am so tired reading the threads now. They all follow the same pattern. Anyone daring to post an opposite view gets the same treatment

Endless calls to define woman
De railing of the thread by picking up one small point and then centring all arguments on it
Suggesting that the OP is not genuine - either a man, a TRA, a handmaiden or "interesting first post OP" suggesting an ulterior motive
Arguing that muslim women will be confined to the house if this goes ahead
Posting dodgy statistics to back up their argument and yet if anyone makes an opposing argument there are endless calls to "provide a link" or "cite the source"
De railing by talking about breakfast cereals or in this case the John Lewis advert. Yet are very quick to accuse others of de railing their threads if you dare to pick up a point that has been made in the thread but doesn't directly refer to the thread title. Double standards much?

I've hidden the feminist boards now because it is just groundhog day reading them. I don't agree with self id because it is open to abuse. That's it though. As far as I am concerned everyone can be who ever they want and I will accept them, as long as they abide by the law.

@Verbeena

That thread shocked me too and tbh just proved that all of the arguments that those people are not trans phobic or aren't against all trans people simply aren't true. They showed their true colours on that thread.

Which ones are often false? What research did you do to be able to refute them and say they are false?

50% of all trans in prison are sexual offenders. No one ever mentions the fact that firstly it is 41%, secondly it refers to those who have self declared themselves as trans and not those holding a GRC, thirdly it only applies to those criminals who are on a long stretch and therefore have had a case conference. Which statistically, are far more likely to be sexual offenders than say - shoplifters. And finally, the figures apply to all trans people not just transwoman.

The statistics that transwoman continue to offend at the same rate as woman that’s often trotted out. This is based on a Swedish study that shows that was the case for transsexuals pre 1980, after 1980 (when transsexuals had better mental health provisions) this is not the case. The author has said this study does not prove that but that doesn’t stop the line being used.

I don’t use suicide statistics, not have I researched them - so I don’t know why I need to answer that.

It’s a shame posters have used an open space to discuss these issues to form some sort of torrade of hate against the transgender community, as opposed to making more woman aware of what self ID is and why it’s dangerous. Lots more woman would’ve joined the movement if it wasn’t so hostile on FWR.

Have a , OP.

*offend at the same rate as men!

Interesting that the OP has chosen to start their thread in AIBU, rather than in the feminism chat topic where most of the ‘hate crime’ is purportedly going on……….

Where is the OP’s criticism of members of the trans lobby who vilify anyone who questions their rhetoric, will not allow open debate, who abuse and threaten anyone who doesn’t subscribe to their ideology.

notavictim36 - most of the people writing on these threads are not ‘anti-trans’ but anti self ID. Self ID has already opened the doors to people who are not transwomen, but who have their own usually fairly sinister agenda. The issue with self ID is that it's really hard to tell the difference.

‘Transwomen are women’ but an actual natal woman is not, according to the trans lobby – she’s a ‘cis woman’.

It’s getting to the stage where we’re not allowed to have breast cancer of breastfeed babies, menstruate or give birth because these things exclude transwomen.

It’s hardly surprising women are cross

Earlywalker - exactly - 'those who have declared themselves as trans', which is exactly what happens under Self ID. Again, very few people on these boards are anti trans, many, many are anti self ID and with good reason.

Well we know why. Some people really are desperate to silence women. We all know that's what this is really about.

What are you suggesting here? Please do elucidate.