The whole shit show can hardly be blamed on Theresa May can it

[dawnacorns]

I'm hardly her number one fan but I can't see how getting rid of her is the answer. They just don't seem to know what they're doing. It's an absolute mess whichever way you look at it.

Its a Withdrawal Agreement only, lasting 20months, its not our long term relationship with the EU, which there will be no vote on and certainly nothing the public can influence.

Presumably our long term relationship with the EU will be determined by which ever party wins future elections.

However, I don't understand what will change in 20 month's time that will make the border with/in Ireland less of a problem. If there is a better deal that can be done why is nobody suggesting one?

If you include agricultural and research grants, subsidies etc, the figure goes down to 160 million a week. Still eye watering.

As for the "let's put it towards the NHS" it was a statement made by a team consisting of backbench MPs and businessmen. Hardly a policy guarantee.

But actually after all that, hasn't TM just announced a 20 million pound "brexit bonus"for the NHS?

As for misleading claims, far more serious when coming from the Government itself. I wonder where the immediate recession that Osborne promised has gone?

Forallthesaints, yes Bozza is hilarious, what a laugh. If you get the chance, and not mentioning the Brexit bus lie, please ask him about the missing £34 million spent on the non-existent London Garden Bridge as there's a big hole where that money should be.

Sorry forallthesaints, I've miscalled you. My post meant for ralfeesmum. Apologies.

If you include agricultural and research grants, subsidies etc, the figure goes down to 160 million a week. Still eye watering.

Depends what you are buying for 160 million a week. If it's tax revenues in excess of 160 million a week you have made a net gain.

But actually after all that, hasn't TM just announced a 20 million pound "brexit bonus"for the NHS?

The 20 billion pounds has no financial link to Brexit. Calling it a 'Brexit Bonus' was a way to get support from Brexiteers who otherwise don't like increases to government spending. It would only be a Brexit bonus if the government had an extra 20 billion pounds because of Brexit, which they quite clearly don't.

As for misleading claims, far more serious when coming from the Government itself. I wonder where the immediate recession that Osborne promised has gone?

Osborne couldn't 'promise' a recession, he could only say whether he thought one was likely. Given that companies are stock piling food and nobody knows whether planes will be able to leave the ground in March, the lack of an immediate recession following the vote isn't particularly reassuring.

you say "her bluff". It's not a bluff and it's not hers. A huge team of civil servants negotiated this, the same civil servants who would negotiate it whomever was in power, whomever the pm was, and who will continue to negotiate it going forward

She has overall control, sets the criteria in which the CS's operate in she has other options, a 1st vote on the deal and a revoke, either is preferable to a no-deal.
She is very stubborn, who is set on "her way or the highway" this can be v good if it is the correct course of action but a fuggin disaster if it is not and swapping a very good deal for a unknown blind brexit is stupid beyond belief and not in the national interest.

However, I don't understand what will change in 20 month's time that will make the border with/in Ireland less of a problem. If there is a better deal that can be done why is nobody suggesting one?

What will change after the next GE is that the DUP will not hold sway over the Government (in all likelihood) so a border in the sea can easily be done and they can ignore NI just like they ignore Scotland's wishes.

So basically, the DUP wanted the moon on a stick, the Brexiteers swear the moon is made of green cheese and this withdrawal agreement is green cheese on a stick which isn't moon-shaped enough to convince anyone...

Put Boris in No.10 I say! He may be no better but at least he'll give us a laugh for our money

Another Trump, terrifyingly funny!

As for the "let's put it towards the NHS" it was a statement made by a team consisting of backbench MPs and businessmen. Hardly a policy guarantee.

Gove was in the Cabinet. Hardly a backbencher. But nice try for an excuse.

You back the person/party you believe is best suited and they either deliver or they don’t.

But it would be nice if those posters who did at least had the grace to admit that they have been let down, instead of now saying the opposite and thinking that we will have forgotten previous posts.

Honestly I look at California and can see the emotive reasons for leaving the EU. They are having to go through a massive tragedy with an orange buffoon as head of state who they didn't elect. They have a population the size of a large European country but still just 2 senators, while for some reason there are two Dakotas, each with a population of under a million.

That still doesn't mean that leaving the United States is a practical proposition for California.

...also, once we leave in March next year, we lose the very real threat of no-deal or the v. unlikely revoke, handing even more cards to the EU in regard to any future FTA.

But it would be nice if those posters who did at least had the grace to admit that they have been let down.....

You've lost me now, have I missed something?

The Mail are behind her and 11 MP's have submitted the letters of no confidence.
I have a feeling she will survive for now at least.
when they have the vote will be telling though. will it go through?

I have a feeling she will survive for now at least.

One of the things they have to consider is that they can't have another vote of no confidence for another 12 months.

If they have a no confidence vote now and lose she will be PM till December 2019.

I think some MPs would like to keep her in the hot seat till at least March and then replace her.

I hope she survives. If she does she can rightly say she got us through Brexit.

Crazy when you think that, unlike other big difficult things countries face, this is self-inflicted.

I suggested to my local MP that we should do a Norway deal and tell businesses that we will finish completely with the EU by a certain date. (say in 5 years time)
He said the public wouldn't like that because we would still have open borders to the EU.
Doing Teresa's deal doesn't seem to be much different, after we've
faffed about till 2020 it will be about that time anyway and all the EU immigrants that are going to come will be here.
Other EU countries that are on the edge of wanting to leave will do the same and then we can all join up and be a common market of trading countries. Hold on a minute, I've heard that said somewhere before.

I think some MPs would like to keep her in the hot seat till at least March and then replace her

I suspect it's more no one wants to take her place. They'd rather she stayed, saw it through and then they can all vie for position, anyone taking it now is going to be lamabasted as she is, it doesn't matter what party they are in.

I also suspect there is less appetite for this than some politicians are hoping. As one of the sky reporters said, we have to remember these. idiots people trying to oust her are a tiny minority of all MPs. Hopefully the rest have some common sense and can see how damaging it is at this time, when we should be pulling together.

There is also a risk for Brexiteers that more chaos leads to more public support for a second referendum. It's not as though there is an alternative deal ready and waiting with anything like majority support in parliament.

Also, wouldn't a leader of a minority party without the validation of a General Election be even more in hoc to the DUP?

Tactically their best bet seems to be to get a deal through and then worry about changing the details later. (Although nobody has yet come up with a plausible way of changing any of the details.)

I actually think that this is exactly why Leave was so vague - they had no plan and also it meant that they could always keep saying "no that's not what we wanted" ad nauseum. It's like an annoying younger sibling always trying to get mum's attention. People like this are never satisfied and will always move the goalposts to suit their agenda.

Suggesting anyone voted for at least 50 years of hardship is ridiculous - leavers must all be masochistic if they believe this is worth it. Funnily they always bang on about not being heard yet can't see correlations between what they called Project Fear and reality that is happening. You want the recession? Wait until March when we leave - particularly if we crash out on WTO - and see what happens within months.

I never understood why Remain campaign got labeled project fear.

The Euroskeptics did their own flavour of Project Fear for 20+ yrs, always moaning about all the things they said were dire & terrible & even potentially scary about staying in the EU.

It's all very quiet on the Brexit boards when you consider what is going on.

It's all most as if the leavers are hiding.

I think they aren't singing anymore, to quote a football chant when a big team is being trounced.

ralfeesmum Put Boris in No.10 I say! He may be no better but at least he'll give us a laugh for our money.

Yes, he's such a wag, isn't he? I bet Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe is laughing her socks off in her Tehran prison cell.

Indeed, ralfeesmum, I bet she is.
And how we would laugh if dear strikethrough -Trump - Boris was
in charge