The whole shit show can hardly be blamed on Theresa May can it

[dawnacorns]

I'm hardly her number one fan but I can't see how getting rid of her is the answer. They just don't seem to know what they're doing. It's an absolute mess whichever way you look at it.

Because the UK isn't an Euro country?
It doesn't need any extra measures.

If the Euro collapsed tomorrow every UK individual or organisation that traded in Euros or held Euros would be affected immediately - just like if the Dollar collapsed tomorrow.

The point is that leaving the EU doesn't protect the UK from the impact of the collapse of a major currency.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme

@Peregrina In legal terms the advert on the side of the bus was hyperbole - 'a mere puff'. The Remain side made equivalent statements that have been described as scaremongering. I haven't met anyone who was persuaded by anything that anyone said in the lead up to the referendum. I think we need to move beyond what happened in 2016 and look at the future. At the moment there is a draft agreement. It doesn't seem to have anyone's support and is widely being derided as the worst of both worlds. There isn't very long to sort out an alternative - even staying in the EU would require some negotiation at this stage, I should imagine. Theresa May is wedded to this draft agreement, so stoic as she is, if she is PM, this is what we get. At the moment I would take a punt on the chaos of a leadership election over accepting this draft agreement, but I'm not an MP weighing up who is more likely to give me a cabinet position and, sadly, that is what all politicians seem to care about.

Totally agree @perigrena. It's just opinions and all are valid.

More than anything, I'm dreading the return of the bitter fighting that marked the referendum. I know opinions run high but it's not an excuse for name calling and personal insults.

Already on this thread, I've twice been called a bot and threatened with being reported just for expressing a view that someone else disagrees with.

Who knows, some leavers may even have been convinced to vote otherwise if they had been engaged in proper debate rather than being told they are stupid and ignorant etc

The stuff on the bus was hyperbole, yes, but they wouldn't have bothered if they didn't think some would fall for it. That IMO is the worst of the con tricks perpetrated - people value an NHS, and want to see it have more money.

Do remind me what Remainers had on the side of the bus, because I can't remember anything.

I think we need to move beyond what happened in 2016 and look at the future.

Indeed we do. Two and a half years ago a campaign was narrowly won based on lies and foreign interference. Now that we have had the information which should have been presented to us 3 or 4 years ago, do we still want to go ahead, and know that far from the easiest deals in history we can only get something second, third or tenth rate or do we want to reconsider?

The Remain side made equivalent statements that have been described as scaremongering.

There is a big difference between suggesting what might happen and incorrectly stating what is happening.

I’m aware of the concept of ‘puff’ in relation to Trump and his properties, but I don’t think it’s ‘puff’ to claim that 60% of apartments have sold when it’s acutally 15.8%, and I don’t think an easily checkable figure on a bus is ‘puffery’.

It was just a lie that they thought was worth telling.

Who knows, some leavers may even have been convinced to vote otherwise if they had been engaged in proper debate rather than being told they are stupid and ignorant etc Exactly

The stuff on the bus was hyperbole

It wasn’t just the number though, it was a complete misrepresentation of how government funding works.

The money can only be spent on the NHS if tax revenue stays at the same level. The point of paying the money is that by being in the EU we are more prosperous than we would be outside the EU so there is a net economic gain.

You can argue the toss about whether it’s worth staying in the EU, but you can’t make the bus argument and also talk about it taking 50 years to feel benefit of Brexit.

Two and a half years ago a campaign was narrowly won based on lies and foreign interference

I think though the issue is that a large chunk of thr public are clearly not aware of the issues. This thread proves that. Or even the daily mail comments, From people thinking Teresa May single handedly negotiated it, to thinking leaving will be no problem, to thinking we can just renegotiate this and the eu will give us what we want, or mind bogglinglu that the eu needs us more than we need them.

Not knowing two and a half years ago was one thing. Not knowing now is something very different, the information is widely available, but still too many people are clue less.

So I favour a second referendum, and I think stay would win, but I think it needs to be acknowledged there are still large chunks of the British public not in a position to make an informed decision.

It would be funny if the consequences weren't so tragic about how people two years ago were singing May's praises and trusted her, and now she can't do a thing right.

Yesterday there was a remain protester photobombing some interviews outside parliament, with a banner saying "Things have changed. It's time to reassess." :o You can't accuse him of hyperbole!

It would be funny if the consequences weren't so tragic about how people two years ago were singing May's praises and trusted her, and now she can't do a thing right

I actually think it's the opposite. She was not favoured before and I think the tide is turning as people start to realise that this is as good as it gets for us. That actually we need her to go and get it done as our alternatives are appalling and we can't crash out with no deal. That she's actually working in the uks interests and not trying to political point score.

I mean seriously, how many times must she have thought "fuck this". We all know when it's done she will walk away. The resilience she's shown to try to stop us being financially fucked is admirable.

Put Boris in No.10 I say! He may be no better but at least he'll give us a laugh for our money.

It would be funny if the consequences weren't so tragic about how people two years ago were singing May's praises and trusted her, and now she can't do a thing right

Flip that exactly the other way

Yes the bus was misleading as the £350 million didn't include our rebates. So the actual net figure we send to the EU is around 200 million a week.

Do remainers think we would have changed our minds if we realised that we only send 200 million each week?

Those of you supporting May now only need to do a quick search on MN and you will find plenty of people who thought she was wonderful and would get it sorted.

In real life DH knew some who said 'Theresa's doing a good job'. This was before her ill-fated election. Sadly they were in a walking group which no longer meets so we can't find out if they still think the same.

Put Boris in No.10 I say! He may be no better but at least he'll give us a laugh for our money. The Prime Minister makes the decision to send troops to wars or conflicts, or at least recommends it to Cabinet or the House of Commons based on classified information. Boris's grasp of details has been so poor when London Mayor and then Foreign Secretary that I would feel the country was in danger were he PM. I would argue for exercise of the Royal Prerogative to stop him being appointed.

Yes the bus was misleading as the £350 million didn't include our rebates.

No, the bus was misleading because it didn't take into account the tax revenue earned and subsidies received through being in the EU. If I didn't give so much money to Tesco each year I could go on a lively holiday, but I would have no food.

(lovely holiday, although it could also be lively!)

tigerroo and then we get back farming subsidy, regional development and other grants- the net was £86m per week.

I think if the question of the NI border and the costs of the deal had been known, and the real £86m per week, then some would have voted differently.

That is water under the bridge so to speak- what I think now is as the deal is not what anyone voted for, there should be a second referendum. To me the question is whether or not it is 'deal or remain', or 'deal or no deal'.

There's more to it than that though - the bus slogan also suggested that would be a straightforward swap, that could simply be carried out once we leave. In fact, there's a vast amount of money to be paid to the EU in settlement, a vast bill to get the necessary bureaucracy done, not to mention the loss of trade and other benefits, businesses who are leaving Britain, loss of the actual workers we need for the NHS, etc..

Those of you supporting May now only need to do a quick search on MN and you will find plenty of people who thought she was wonderful and would get it sorted

That’s politics all over though isn’t it? You back the person/party you believe is best suited and they either deliver or they don’t.

Bluntness100

Its a Withdrawal Agreement only, lasting 20months, its not our long term relationship with the EU, which there will be no vote on and certainly nothing the public can influence.

You are falling for her bullying tactics of "its my deal or no-deal" and i sincerely hope its voted down and her bluff is called.

Just cannot understand why anyone would support this or any other deal, all are blind brexits and could very well lead to absolutely anything at all.

i'm bewildered by those thinking|TM is a poor woman sorting out the mess that the men won't. She has always been ruthlessly ambitious. She grasped the opportunity to be PM when Cameron flounced and has held onto it with the tenacity of a barnacle (thanks to poster on another thread for that analogy). She has been duplicitous and weak and too arrogant to take advice from those more informed and capable than she is. It has been all about keeping herself and the Tories in power.

I do admire her physical resilience but she has a lot of financial advantages and support to enable her to maintain her health and strength that she is happy to deprive other women of. She does not care.

You are falling for her bullying tactics of "its my deal or no-deal" and i sincerely hope its voted down and her bluff is called

I'm not falling for anything, and my informed opinion is I think it's in the countries best interests for this transitional deal to be voted through.

And again, you say "her bluff". It's not a bluff and it's not hers. A huge team of civil servants negotiated this, the same civil servants who would negotiate it whomever was in power, whomever the pm was, and who will continue to negotiate it going forward.