The whole shit show can hardly be blamed on Theresa May can it

[dawnacorns]

I'm hardly her number one fan but I can't see how getting rid of her is the answer. They just don't seem to know what they're doing. It's an absolute mess whichever way you look at it.

All the people saying we should have another referendum and the option to remain in the EU. Seriously?!?! Even if that was an option do you honestly think the EU would welcome us back with open arms and everything would go back to exactly how it was before? Not a chance, they'd be in a perfect position to use that stick to beat us and make us an example to any other countries who may be thinking about leaving.

Trump advised T-May to 'sue the EU'. What exactly the basis of claim for damages or breach of contract would be, was never explained.

elements
You're so negative! We could go back to...
Encylopaedias
Phone boxes
Paraffin heaters
Privvies
Gathering around the piano
Getting the bus
Germolene
Holidays in Bognor and Skegness

It would be fun!

Not read through the thread but agree May had a tough job but I agree with these words by a journalist about her handling of Brexit (I am a remainer)

“Theresa May chose to ride the tiger of her party instead of protecting the interests of her country. Blundering at every point, she made a very bad situation worse. Why trigger article 50 with no plan, no preparation, no strategy? Why promise undeliverable red lines, without warning of inevitable compromise? Why agree a meagre 21-month transition, when a complex trade deal takes years? May has wasted 28 months, with the great boulders of Ireland and frictionless borders still where they were on day one.”

All the people saying we should have another referendum and the option to remain in the EU. Seriously?!?! Even if that was an option do you honestly think the EU would welcome us back with open arms and everything would go back to exactly how it was before? Not a chance, they'd be in a perfect position to use that stick to beat us and make us an example to any other countries who may be thinking about leaving.

Donald Tusk on more than one occasion has said UK are welcome to remain.

they'd be in a perfect position to use that stick to beat us and make us an example to any other countries who may be thinking about leaving.
Oh, do give over, genius. You've been brainwashed by Brexit-think.

they'd be in a perfect position to use that stick to beat us
They can't actually do that though can they. How would they legally do that. They have already said we can remain as pp said. It would be a year or two of embarrassment then forgotten. What's the alternative? Just keep going because we made one crap decision and it snowballed? I think that's called sunk costs fallacy.

Of course they'd have us back. We are a noisy troublesome voice of reason that keeps a good balance in the EU. They actually love us.

No brainwashing here thanks @twofingerstoEverything

twofingers I am definitely a negative-thinking Remoaner - that's why I'm hoping some of our positive-thinking patriotic BeLeavers will be leading the way with giving up nice stuff that has appeared/changed in the past 40-50 years.

genius1308 yes another referendum please. I can't see how they will have us over a barrel if we stay as we will have voting rights. If we leave on the other hand, that's where they will have us over a barrel, we will have no say at all in their decisions but will still be bound by many of the rules to maintain a trading relationship. Indications from what I have read are that they would like us to stay. Although perhaps we will be free to sell arms to Malaysia if we leave . I honestly can't see another way forward than another referendum. No-one seems happy with the deal, only a few hardliners want to leave with no deal at all. I don't think many people understood the complexities of the Irish border issue in 2016 (I didn't and I am a remainer). Polls are showing a shift to remain. If a people's vote comes back with a leave result then at least we will know it is still 'the will of the people' and we can get on with it. But if it's no longer the will of the people, we could stay?

Another one blaming Cameron.
But May called Brexit.

Maybe Cameron should have only given us 1 option to remain because there are so many people who cannot accept that more ppl wanted to leave. The politicians lied about the money for nhs they lie and nothing is ever done about it. this is the decision of the voters it’s done. Opinions are like arse holes we all have one.

I agree the whole mess is not her fault. Cameron is more to blame than her. He chose to sacrifice the country to save the Tory Party. But May is also very much to blame. Although she is a decent, honourable person she has poor poitical judgement. After the referendum she should have reached out to both Leavers and Remainers by saying that she would honour the outcome of the referendum but also go for a very soft Brexit - a Norway type deal. Instead she introduced her ridiculous red lines to appease the extreme Brexiteers, and to keep her party united. Now we are in this appalling situation in which Parliament will probably reject a deal that Europe will not change. What happens then? I pray for a second referendum.

So agree with this. She could have taken a very different course back in 2016 but like Cameron she tried to appease the extreme Brexiters in the party and was far too adversarial from the get go.

Whatever happened AFTER Cameron, it was he who threw the country a ridiculous choice for his own political reasons.. He is a disgrace.

Yes bellinisurch this is spot on. To give back to you what me and 3 million others have been told (albeit without legal guarantee): We want you to stay. And I am sure that would happen if you wanted it. The EU is not just about money and trade. It is sbout cooperation, discovery and exchange. I am not French, but “Vive la difference!” is a good motto, and traditionally you Brits are the best in that. We will miss your tradition of Monty Python and the Beatles, but not Rees-Moog and hostile environment. We will miss you.

Parliament voted 544 for and 53 against to have a referendum.

We are one of the most successful countries on the planet, why? because we can get rid of a lame duck government.

The EU is lame duck but we can't vote to get rid of it.

We were brave enough to stand up to them, as a close friend said it is the best thing that ever happened to them...now they will reform.

The EU would welcome the UK back with open arms if A50 was rescinded right up to the wire.
The EU do not want Britain to leave
the Irish really do not want Britain to leave

and before joining the EU, the UK was the sick man of Europe
watch "Auf Weidersehn pet" to refresh your brain

I guess if anyone is really to blame is rhe Brexiteers, who convinced too many people we would be better off leaving, when they had no idea what that meant. They fed the British public a line of bullshit.

I deeply suspect even the Brexiteers thought we'd never vote to leave and it was just playing politics.

And now we are deep in the shit. And deeply reliant on Teresa May to pull us out of it, because the rest of them either can't or won't.

If anything happened to that woman we'd probably be fucked. And that's a shocking state of affairs.

We all have great suggestions and views, but in reality we are relying on the fractured Tory Party to listen to us. The ERG are just beyond belief, not a brain amongst them, and no explanations for their stance. WTAF!

I agree that the EU would accept us back tomorrow, but no one knows if the invocation of A50 can be rescinded. There is a court case pending in ECJ about this, which already is being challenged in the UK Supreme Court.

Politics in Uk now seems to be on the basis of who can shout the loudest, let's oppose everything, our way or the highway, and not an explanation for the public in sight. But it is an internal Tory thing. They were always at each others' throats to the detriment of running the country properly.

Sad to see really, and FPTP doesn't help either, because Labour is the alternative, and I don't see that working out too well either.

Democracy is not about choosing just Labour or Conservative. There should be other alternatives. Won't happen, I know this.

The terror and fear of UKIP has led us here.

Socialism makes us sick.
The rich man talks more than the poor man, socialism takes make from the rich, gives it to the poor and the poor man talks less.

Same with countries.......EU takes money from us, spreads it around but it doesn't make anyone richer, only education, study, skills, risk taking etc can create wealth.

EU takes money from us, spreads it around but it doesn't make anyone richer, only education, study, skills, risk taking etc can create wealth.
The amount of money that the EU spreads around to promote

• education
• study
• infrastructure
• development
• culture
• environment

DWARFS what the UK government will ever spend on such things

My DD is on an erasmus placement in Europe
Brexit will stop my son getting one

The EU is lame duck but we can't vote to get rid of it.

EU Council made up of the the heads of state or government of the member states. We vote in our heads of state

EU Commision - There is one member per member state, selected by the EU council, ie, the head of states. As said we vote in our heads of state.

The appointment lasts five years, however, the European Parliament has the power at any time to force the entire Commission to resign through a vote of no confidence.

EU Parliament - directly elected by EU citizens.

May secured the best deal for the negotiation strategy she used. But her strategy was completely flawed (chart a course down the middle, try not to upset anyone, refuse to walk away whatever the demands). This has led to every single negotiation going like this:

EU: we are going to force you to do xyz
UK: But that's unfair! We'll never accept that!
EU: Well it's that or no deal
UK: Ok, we'll accept

The problem is that a Remainer should never have been allowed to lead us out of the EU. The public have consistently been missold the idea that no deal would be disastrous (project fear part 2) as a way of ensuring we barely leave at all and so that we think this awful fudge is the best deal available.

As someone who voted leave, I'm angry that the Government have got the minimal Brexit they wanted, but not the brexit that people voted for. I'm also annoyed when people say it's all leavers fault. No it's not. There were plenty of ways we could have secured a much better deal than we have.