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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if anyone in the country is actually happy with the EU withdrawal agreement?

181 replies

Bearbehind · 14/11/2018 21:04

Is anyone pleased with it?

OP posts:
bellinisurge · 17/11/2018 19:47

"The GDPR clause. The General Data Protection Regulation – the EU’s stupidest law ever? – is to be bound into UK law (Articles 71 to 73). There had been an expectation in some quarters that the UK could get out of it."

If we "get out of lt", that is, out if established UK law which is an updated version of law we had before anyone else (1984 was the first one), we would have zero chance of doing any international online dealings involving people's info. Like selling stuff online to EU customers . Not without massive, business crippling and insurmountable expensive barriers.
But hey, blue passports.

florabel · 17/11/2018 19:52

I also don't think this will get through parliament or that all 27 member states will agree to it as there have already been rumblings from them about access to our fishing waters etc..

To be honest GDPR is the least of the bad things listed here.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 17/11/2018 20:16

If the Spectator's "40 points" which florabel linked are anything like accurate, that's probably one of the most chilling pieces I've ever read. It's not even a pretence of an agreement, more a deliberate lashing for having the temerity to wish to leave

But it will be interesting to watch our largely morally bankrupt politicians spinning it as a "good deal" ...

Xenia · 17/11/2018 20:18

I have read parts of it. I don't want us to leave but I feel it is the best of a bad job.

the EU has one of the best summaries I have seen of it by the way here and it also has in that some diagrams which might be quite useful and information on individuals' rights to stay etc
europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-18-6422_en.pdf

Quietrebel · 17/11/2018 20:39

Qualifying this deal as good or bad is totally beside the point. It is simply what's possible without tearing everything down to its foundations.
The problem here is the global economy has changed so much in nature, not being part of a bloc like the EU is like rebelling against gravity. If it's not the EU, it will be another power and it will bring with it just as many obligations but very probably not as much actual power.
I don't like this deal, I think it highlights how pointless brexit is.
The UK should remain as a senior member of the EU where it does have global power. Giving this up is madness.

florabel · 17/11/2018 21:16

Sorry, I should have included the actual link. here it is although you have to sign up for 3 free articles a week to read it in full.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/the-top-40-horrors-lurking-in-the-small-print-of-theresa-mays-brexit-deal/

florabel · 18/11/2018 09:03

And this from ConservativeHome - www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2018/11/from-an-analysis-of-the-deals-text-mays-broken-promises-on-the-ecj-the-backstop-customs-and-dividing-the-uk.html

From an analysis of the Withdrawal Agreement text: May’s broken promises on the ECJ, the backstop, customs – and dividing the UK

Last updated: November 18, 2018 at 8:13 am

Customs checks in Irish Sea

Article 9 of the backstop states that ‘the [VAT and excise] provisions of Union law listed in Annex 6 to this Protocol concerning goods shall apply to and in the United Kingdom in respect of Northern Ireland’.

Annex 2 of the backstop allows certain charges and costs recovered to take place when goods travel from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.

The EU is making no secret of the fact that Northern Ireland will be treated differently: ‘the EU’s Customs Code will also continue to apply in Northern Ireland… Under the backstop and in order to avoid a hard border, Northern Ireland businesses can place products on the EU’s internal market without restriction. Placing goods on the internal market that come from outside of Northern Ireland requires that the processes provided for in the Union Customs Code will have to be applied’ (European Commission, November 2018, link)

This is despite the Prime Minister saying on 9 July: ‘First, there is what is provided for in the European Council’s guidelines from March this year. This amounts to a standard free trade agreement for Great Britain, with Northern Ireland carved off in the EU’s customs union and parts of the single market, separated through a border in the Irish sea from the UK’s own internal market. No Prime Minister of our United Kingdom could ever accept this; it would be a profound betrayal of our precious Union.’

Regulatory checks in the Irish Sea

Article 7 of the backstop says that ‘nothing in this Protocol shall prevent the United Kingdom from ensuring unfettered market access for goods moving from Northern Ireland to the rest of the United Kingdom’s internal market’. This does not apply for goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.

Article 7 of the backstop says that there could be ‘controls at the ports and airports of Northern Ireland’

The UK in respect of Northern Ireland will remain aligned to a limited set of rules that are related to the EU’s Single Market and indispensable for avoiding a hard border: legislation on goods, sanitary rules for veterinary controls (“SPS rules”), rules on agricultural production/marketing, VAT and excise in respect of goods, and state aid rules

Article 8 of the backstop provides for goods from Northern Ireland to be indicated as ‘UK(NI)’ – a clear separation of Northern Ireland from the UK.

Article 10 of the backstop says that ‘the [Agriculture and environment] provisions of Union law listed in Annex 5 to this Protocol shall apply, under the conditions set out therein, to and in the United Kingdom in respect of Northern Ireland’.

The EU has said that that ‘in order to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland, and to ensure that Northern Irish businesses can place products on the EU’s Single Market without restriction, it will be necessary for the UK in respect of Northern Ireland to maintain specific regulatory alignment with the EU’ (European Commission, November).

The EU has been clear that a regulatory barrier will be introduced for goods coming in from Great Britain: ‘There… [will be] some compliance checks with EU standards, consistent with risk, to protect consumers, economic traders and businesses in the Single Market. The EU and the UK have agreed to carry out these checks in the least intrusive way possible. The scale and frequency of the checks could be further reduced through future agreements between the EU and the UK. For industrial goods, checks are based on risk assessment, and can mostly take place in the market or at traders’ premises by the relevant authorities. Such checks will always be carried out by UK authorities. As for agricultural products, already existing checks at ports and airports will need to continue, but will be increased in scale in order to protect the EU’s Single Market, its consumers and animal health’ (European Commission, November 2018, link).

This is despite May saying on 9 October 2017:

Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP): “I want to give comfort to the people in Northern Ireland on this matter of not having a soft or hard border down the middle of the Irish sea. I want that assurance because the people of Ulster feel that they are being set on the sidelines.

Prime Minister: “I am very happy to give that assurance. We do not want to see a border down the Irish sea either. We want to maintain the integrity of the internal market of the United Kingdom.”

The whole UK will stay in a customs union

Article 6 of the Backstop says that: ‘a single customs territory between the Union and the United Kingdom shall be established (“the single customs territory”). There is no possibility of the UK being able to do its own trade deals under this. This is made clear in Article 3 of Annex 2 of the Backstop: ‘Under no circumstances may the United Kingdom: (a) apply to its customs territory a customs tariff which is lower than the Common Customs Tariff for any good or import from any third country… apply or grant in its customs territory tariff preferences to any good on the basis of rules of origin that are different from those governing the granting of such preferences to the same good by the Union in its customs territory’.

This looks set to become permanent. The text in the Withdrawal Agreement states that there is a ‘common objective of a close future relationship, which will establish ambitious customs arrangements that build on the single customs territory provided for in this protocol’ (p.303).

This is despite the Conservative Party Manifesto 2017 pledging that –

“As we leave the European Union, we will no longer be members of the single market or the customs union.”

Possibility of the extension of the transition period

Article 132 (p122): Provides for a one-off extension of the transition period (potentially up to 2099). This is despite the Prime Minister promising –

“An implementation period ‘of around two years’.

The backstop can only end with EU permission

Article 1 of the backstop says that ‘the provisions of this Protocol shall apply unless and until they are superseded, in whole or in part, by a subsequent agreement’.
Article 20 of the backstop: says that the backstop will only ‘cease to apply’ if ‘the Union and United Kingdom decide jointly’ that it should end. I.e. no unilateral exit clause and no sovereign right for the UK to leave
This is despite multiple promises from Cabinet Ministers that the UK would have a unilateral right to leave.

EU control of our laws / level playing field

Article 12 of the Backstop says that ‘the [State Aid] provisions of Union law listed in Annex 8 to this Protocol shall apply to the United Kingdom’ (p.317). The same Article also treats Northern Ireland differently. Article 12(3) makes clear that the European Commission has the power to investigate ‘a measure by the United Kingdom authorities that may constitute unlawful aid’.

The EU also says that states that ‘The aim of the Protocol is to ensure that EU law, in the areas stipulated in Protocol 3 to Cyprus’s Act of Accession, will continue to apply in the Sovereign Base Areas’.

Article 174 says that matters could be referred to the ECJ. The EU even makes this clear in a chart on their website (see below).

Article 87 says that ‘if the European Commission considers that the United Kingdom has failed to fulfil an obligation under the Treaties or under part…. of the agreement before the end of the transition period, the European Commission may, within four years after the end of the transition period, bring the matter before the Court of Justice’.

Again this is a clear breach of multiple promises by the Prime Minister – for example, that –

“We are not leaving only to return to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. That’s not going to happen’.

To ask if anyone in the country is actually happy with the EU withdrawal agreement?
Jason118 · 18/11/2018 09:11

Florabel is right to post these indications - makes a mockery of the whole thing so just staying in is so much betterSmileSmile

LaurieMarlow · 18/11/2018 09:13

Great post quietrebel

florabel · 18/11/2018 11:00

Thanks Jason118. I am still trying to find out as much information about the whole thing as I can but I am more inclined to look at what those who are acting as 'devil's advocate' are saying in the first instance as the current PM has a vested interest and the spin has gone into overdrive. I just want to read the thing and make up my own mind so that is why I am saying, try to ignore the political spin comments in the articles and just read what the clauses actually say. I find it very telling that none of the pro-Conservative newspapers such as the Daily Mail have published the deal or highlights of it or even offered any deep analysis of it.

whatashower · 18/11/2018 11:23

Thank you florabel ....thats my Sunday afternoon reading sorted 👍

trancepants · 18/11/2018 11:35

It's not even a pretence of an agreement, more a deliberate lashing for having the temerity to wish to leave

OMG! It's not a deliberate lashing for trying to leave. It's the reality of what leaving is. You can't be out of the club and have the benefits of being in the club. Simple as. It's like joining a gym, deciding to end your membership but trying to use the facilities whenever suits you. You can't do it without paying a higher per use fee and even then only at the discretion of the gym. That's how life works.

The continuing EU is 27 countries. You can not have the benefit of being one of us if you are not one of us. If you want to still utilise our benefits as a guest, you have to pay guest rates and do it on our terms. And you have a land border with us, a bloody volatile one, with nearly a million of our citizens on your side. Damn right we are going to do everything in our power to keep the peace there and keep trade moving slowly. We aren't going to take an inordinate amount of financial and practical hits because you have decided to act out on this foolishness.

This is not a good deal. Not at all. It's terrible. Most especially for Scotland who have done absolutely nothing to deserve this awful deal. But tbh, having read quite a bit of it, it's actually extremely generous for the UK going forward. Overall it gives you better terms than it gives the rest of the EU and it minimises the damage you are causing to Ireland. Because that's the thing, you are causing very, very real damage to Ireland. (Again.) And you are angry that Ireland won't roll over and take more this time. But of course it won't. Ireland is now far, far, far more powerful than the UK.

Everything has changed since 1973. Striking out on your own is going to be a disaster for you. And the EU is giving you what is a generous deal. It's just that it's honestly a really, really, really shit deal compared to being in the club. This is the reality of 2018. The world has changed and there is no way that a lone kingdom like the UK can have the kind of sway to get any sort of better deal with any trading bloc. You will do far worse with any other bloc because this deal is genuinely very generous. Independent commentators are saying that it's better than they expected the EU to give. Significantly so. It's just that, and this can't be said enough, it's so much worse than what you have now.

trancepants · 18/11/2018 11:37

keep trade moving smoothly not slowly.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 18/11/2018 12:18

It's not a deliberate lashing for trying to leave. It's the reality of what leaving is. You can't be out of the club and have the benefits of being in the club

This is always mentioned, and FWIW I completely agree that we don't get to enjoy the "benefits" of a club to which we no longer belong ... but we shouldn't expect a uniquely punishing so-called deal either

I'm not sure how much of Florabel's Spectator list you've read but I can only repeat my view that, if it's anything like accurate, only a fool would agree to even consider some of the clauses in it

Childrenofthesun · 18/11/2018 12:56

I'm not sure how much of Florabel's Spectator list you've read but I can only repeat my view that, if it's anything like accurate, only a fool would agree to even consider some of the clauses in it

The Spectator is a right-wing, pro-Brexit publication. You cannot possibly only read one analysis and decide that it's correct. A lack of objective research is arguably what caused the referendum result in the first place.

Having said that, they are quite right that the deal leaves us in a considerably inferior position. However, there is no possible deal available that leaves us in a better position!

The best option = our current membership with rebate and opt-outs from any further political integration, from the Euro and from having to "bail-out" Eurozone countries. With our membership fee we get access to all the economic benefits of membership of the world's largest and most successful trading bloc which brings our economy billions, we are a key member who is instrumental in drawing up EU policy and we have a powerful voice as a member state on global issues.

Least economically damaging Brexit: Single Market/Customs Union membership. We pay and have to follow rules that we don't have as much say in but we still gain from the trading relationships. Similar to Norway/Switzerland but they have customs checks at the borders which is not feasible for us because of the NI border. This option requires continued FOM which TM has ruled out.

Current deal on offer. We stay in the Customs Union so there is no need for a hard border in Ireland. We don't get all the economic benefits of single market membership and we don't have voting rights. We are no longer subject to FOM rules. Similar to Turkey but we have been offered some concessions, eg financial passporting which is so crucial for our economy will largely continue.

The only other option is crash out with no transition. Hopefully by now we are all informed as to what that means (if not, read the impact papers). Massive disruption to imports exports which would leave us with shortages of food/medicine/medical equipment. Disruption to travel. Catastrophic recession predicted to be as bad or worse than the 1930s. Worst of all, legal obligation for a hard border in Ireland.

There is no option between the deal on offer and crash out. Loathsome/Gove et al who claim they're going to re-negotiate are bluffing and they know it. Loathsome wants to investigate technological solutions to the border. Does she not think Switzerland and Norway might not already be using these solutions if they'd been invented?

Nobody who truly understands the consequences of no-deal would even consider it, except a handful of right-wing Tories who can afford to ride-out the recession and who would be the lords to us serfs in a future low-tax/low-reg economy. We can't survive on our own - the only countries that do that are the ones with huge populations and natural resources: USA/Russia/China. We either align ourselves with the EU or have to hang off one of their coat-tails

The deal is utterly shit compared to what we have now, but it's infinitely preferable to no deal at all. Enough MPs understand that, but some of them are holding out hope that not agreeing the deal will push us towards a General Election or second referendum.

trancepants · 18/11/2018 12:56

I've read much of the 585 page deal. Not a biased take on it released faster than it realistically could have been read. This isn't a bad deal. the more I read the more shocked I am by how generous it is. The fact is that many of the points the Spectator is taking umbrage with, are utterly impossible to have any other way due to the reality of the land border in Ireland. That's just geography and the the only way to change them is to increase the difference between NI and the rest of the UK. But that will be incredibly likely to lead to an independent Scotland who rejoin the EU. Making all of those problems worse.

That's reality. This is a bad, bad, bad situation. Not a bad deal. Brexit is so, so far beyond stupid. The EU is so not perfect. It's faulty in many ways but being on the outside is infinitely (literally not figuratively) worse.

Xenia · 18/11/2018 13:07

The treaty is pretty much what most of us expected would happen if we left and is not too different from what given we have to leave I was hoping we might end up with.

It avoid what I feaared most - what I call the Versailles option - that was after WWI the treaty was so bad for Germany (one side) that WWII happened. Instead this involves like all good compromised terminations give and take on both sides.

(On the one issue of data protection, no one was expecting us to abolish protection for people's privacy (whether you are a remainer or brexiteer) which as said above we have had by statuste since 1984 and before that to some extent by common law)

It is indeed a bad situation (that we are leaving) and a reasonable deal.

florabel · 18/11/2018 14:34

I just wanted to put it there (with no opinion of my own and a disclaimer to just look at the clauses) so people can read for themselves. I am not in any way trying to influence or dictate what people should think or feel about the subject, it is just what I found after a search looking for the main points of the treaty which very few places have actually published.

Satsumaeater · 18/11/2018 14:37

I can't say that I am massivey happy with the deal as I think we should stay in the EU. However, I think the Remain ship has long sailed and don't think there will be another referendum.

No deal is simply not an option.

Therefore I think this is the best of a bad job. Also, if it pleases nobody it's probably reflecting the closeness of the vote quite accurately.

I think MPs will do some posturing and then accept it. They were happy enough to trigger Art 50, now they have to accept the consequences of doing so.

florabel · 18/11/2018 14:38

Someone up thread posted a link that was from the EU themselves but wouldn't open. If anyone has links to non-partisan analysis then I would be really interested to read it. Thanks.

florabel · 18/11/2018 14:53

I like to read from both sides of an argument and also any 'independent' POV's. I find that somewhere between the two sides lies the truth.

Childrenofthesun · 18/11/2018 15:12

I know that Florabel but other posters were referring only to that piece. Smile

I thought the article offered some interesting analysis but I'd be worried if people didn't look at other pieces too as you have done.

florabel · 18/11/2018 15:43

Thanks Childrenofthesun, I was sort of hoping others could perhaps post things too from whichever source so we can all read a cross-section of analysis. x

cucumbergin · 18/11/2018 16:45

Some Tory MPs are apparently now talking about no Brexit. Is this a serious prospect or are they just trying to scare the Brexiteers? www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-conservatives-moderates-warning-theresa-may-eurosceptics-a8639171.html

Parker231 · 18/11/2018 16:51

I can’t see there being anything other than a no deal and a crash out of the EU. Where is TM going to get the votes to get her deal through Parliament?

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