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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if anyone in the country is actually happy with the EU withdrawal agreement?

181 replies

Bearbehind · 14/11/2018 21:04

Is anyone pleased with it?

OP posts:
Bearbehind · 16/11/2018 06:25

It’s horrifying how ingrained some of these ridiculous notions about the EU have become.

I cannot comprehend how anyone could reach the conclusion the EU don’t care about the GFA.

It’s us who want to leave.

Leaving requires a border where the UK meets the EU.

That contradicts a treaty we’ve signed therefore we need to find a solution.

As ever this all goes back to the fact Leavers have always worked on the theory we could just have our cake and eat it and none of the difficult stuff would actually ever need addresssing.

OP posts:
Phuquocdreams · 16/11/2018 06:46

Hatels, your grip on reality is tenuous to say the least. How was the EU using the GFA as “a stick to beat the UK incl NI and Ireland”, when it was Ireland, a EU member state, that was insisting it be respected? Do you actually understand that Ireland is a separate sovereign country? How on earth could the UK’s land border with the EU be ignored in determining arrangements for leaving the EU? Have you the slightest idea what you’re talking about?

Theworldisfullofgs · 16/11/2018 06:57

No not really happy. Its an option that is worse than we currently have.

However it's not no deal and we need certainty.
I don't expect it will get through parliament. We'll be dragged kicking and screaming to no deal

Bearbehind · 16/11/2018 07:18

I’d like to hear from a few more Leavers. If this is the deal would you really prefer it to Remaining?

OP posts:
Justanothernameonthepage · 16/11/2018 07:33

'the EU should Butt Out and leave the 'affected' people to work it out"
You do know this is the EU border too? So surely you must see that the EU are affected? We voted out, Ireland didn't. We don't get to then demand they go solo as well so that negotiations might become slightly easier. I can't believe how patient Ireland have been as our parliament dick about with some MP's insisting there is a magical easy simple solution but they aren't going to spoil it by telling us.
I'm not happy with the solution but it is a business themed Brexit. EU capitulated on a major issue, we capitulated on the rest that will allow businesses to keep going and cushion us initially. I have doubts it will go through though.

lonelyplanetmum · 16/11/2018 07:42

The EU 'not caring' about the GFA?? ?Hmm

This is beyond ironic. Looking at the EU and U.K. politicians:

• One lot have said
'scrap the Northern Ireland backstop' (BJ) and
'the importance of the Irish border was being overplayed'(NF) and
Suggested a return to checks “as we had during the Troubles”. (JRM) and
said Northern Ireland border problem has been "heavily overemphasised"(DD)

( That was Johnson, Farage, Rees Mogg and Davis.)

• The other (EU) politicians have continuously and unwaveringly shown the community will support any deal which safeguards the Good Friday Agreement as a completely central priority. ( Michel Barnier, Tusk, Juncker, Verhofstadt)

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said that it was the U.K. previous proposals that were undermining the Good Friday Agreement.

To be fair TM herself unlike others in her party has mostly tried to say we will not risk a return to a hard border.

It is the right wing Tories and UKIP that have wanted to tear up NI guarantees and don't give a stuff about the GFA. The EU has bent over backwards to preserve and honour it.
.

NotSureThisIsWhatIWant · 16/11/2018 08:11

This is a much worse deal than we have now just for the benefit of having the illusion of leaving.

But then, much better than no deal as, with both Corbyn and the Conservatives our only options, they will be happy to ruin the economy to respect the uninformed vote people had 2 years ago and who less than 45% of the voters would support today.

trancepants · 16/11/2018 08:41

Ok trance everyone is entitled to their opinion and at least we should be able to agree that we disagree................. I will maintain my position that the EU should Butt Out and leave the 'affected' people to work it out and you can maintain yours that the border between The ROI and NI is absolutely central to the entirety of all Brexit negotiations.

No. This is not a subjective matter to which all opinions are equally valid. It's an objective fact. The NI/RoI border is the UK/EU border. The EU are the affected peoples. The RoI citizens are EU citizens. Ireland is an EU country, we are the EU and it's the EU's business because that's who we are. We want EU involvement, it's a benefit of being part of the union. Also close to a million NI citizens are EU citizens, no matter what happens going forward the Northern Ireland will always be EU business.

Lweji · 16/11/2018 09:41

No. This is not a subjective matter to which all opinions are equally valid. It's an objective fact. The NI/RoI border is the UK/EU border.

Well said.

PiperPublickOccurrences · 16/11/2018 09:48

I'm a firm remainer.

This deal is better than no deal.

I feel very sorry for Theresa May, she is in the impossible position of trying to get two sides with completely different views to agree to something. And her cabinet aren't getting behind her to get what's best for the UK as a whole. I don't believe for a second that people like Rees-Mogg and BoJo are all about the interests of the UK. They are purely out to further their personal agenda.

Hope she can knock some heads together, get it through parliament and we can move on.

surferjet · 16/11/2018 10:28

Says it all.
A firm remainer likes this deal.

Sack TM, bring in Boris & JRM & get a deal that leavers are happy with.

Lweji · 16/11/2018 10:40

A firm remainer likes this deal.

You're confusing considering it the lesser evil with liking it.

I'd love you to experience a hard Brexit, but I don't wish it on the UK.

bellinisurge · 16/11/2018 10:46

If you make a deal it has to be with another party. Otherwise it's just wanking.
Apart from the odd tweak (which is unlikely) what does @surferjet think we CAN get out of EU.

bellinisurge · 16/11/2018 10:48

That isn't a spelling mistake. They are wankers.

trancepants · 16/11/2018 11:04

Apart from the odd tweak (which is unlikely) what does @surferjet think we CAN get out of EU.

If it isn't this deal, then the only other alternative (other than a no deal exit) is for Britain to further cut ties with NI. The rest of the UK can probably leave the SM and the CU but NI may never be able to. So if Britain wants more independence, it will have to be willing to leave NI in a very different (infinitely better) state. The problem is NI hardliners don't want that though I suspect that the NI public would mostly be ok with it.

The other problem is that the Scottish would almost certainly fight it all the way. They (very understandably) want what Northern Ireland is being offered. As it stands, this is a very, very raw deal for Scotland, exiting the SM and CU would potentially be even worse for them. They would be greatly likely to vote for Independence in a second indy referendum if EU membership for an independent Scotland was a possibility. (And this time around, I think that the EU would bend over backwards to readmit Scotland.) Then you have a weakened British economy due to loss of Scottish resources, extremely serious issues concerning Trident nuclear bases and an EU border on the island of Britain which would be a complete clusterfuck for the British government to deal with.

It's messy all around really. The EU is very far from perfect. Very. But there is no future outcome for Britain, especially England and Wales that is better than the position you hold now. Not in any of our lifetimes anyway.

HoustonBess · 16/11/2018 11:06

It won't get through parliament. I can't believe politicians wouldn't then opt for GE or PV rather than crash out. Any politician supporting no deal would likely be out on their ear next election.

My worry is that the people who believed claims that we could somehow change everything yet change nothing in the first referendum would rather buy into a narrative about the EU being spiteful or bullying in a second, rather than admit they were misled about what was possible. You can't access frictionless trade without following the rules that make the system work, any more than you can play football with a shuttlecock.

bumbleymummy · 16/11/2018 11:21

Surferjet, I think you’re clinging to the false promises that we’re made that could never be delivered.

bumbleymummy · 16/11/2018 11:21

were* stupid phone AC

Bluntness100 · 16/11/2018 13:18

I suspect it might just get through Parliament, there has to be enough decent intelligent MPs out there who will try to work on behalf of the British public and not sell us down the river to no deal.

There has to be right, they can't all be like mogg,Rees or McEvoy?

Bearbehind · 16/11/2018 16:22

Sack TM, bring in Boris & JRM & get a deal that leavers are happy with.

If either BJ or JRM wanted the job they’d have it by now.

They know the reality, unlike the majority of Leavers, that’s it’s simply not possible to deliver anything better and it could be a whole lot worse.

OP posts:
bellinisurge · 16/11/2018 16:41

@surferjet - ever get the feeling you've been had?

dontalltalkatonce · 16/11/2018 16:53

Sack TM, bring in Boris & JRM & get a deal that leavers are happy with.

The EU needs to approve it, too, so that will be no deal then. I'm more than happy to throw all these leavers under a bus when the shit hits the fan. Fuck 'em.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 16/11/2018 16:53

I am starting to look at this deal as a stepping stone to Brexit. We make it work the best we can and then elect a proper Brexit government at the next election in 2022.

That way we have plenty of time to make all the preparations for actually being a sovereign state again, the breakup wont be a 'cliff edge' as we will already have started the divorce and remainers wont be able to complain nobody knew what was voted for.

Jason118 · 16/11/2018 17:35

And if this time is well spent understanding the actual ramifications of leaving, then we will re-apply Smile

florabel · 17/11/2018 19:39

I found this via the Spectator and they have summarised 40 key points from the Agreement. I will leave it here for discussion. Try to ignore the polemic and just look at what the clauses actually mean for the UK. I have been looking high and low for summaries of the most important points of the WA and this is the best I have found in terms of listing things in digestible chunks (leaving aside the political bias of the add on comments).

In summary: The supposed ‘transition period’ could last indefinitely or, more specifically, to an undefined date sometime this century (“up to 31 December 20XX”, Art. 132). So while this Agreement covers what the government is calling Brexit, what we in fact get is: ‘transition’ + extension indefinitely (by however many years we are willing to pay for) + all of those extra years from the ‘plus 8 years’ articles.

Should it end within two years, as May hopes, the UK will still be signed up to clauses keeping us under certain rules (like VAT and ECJ supervision) for a further eight years. Some clauses have, quite literally, a “lifetime” duration (Art.39). If the UK defaults on transition, we go in to the backstop with the Customs Union and, realistically, the single market. We can only leave the transition positively with a deal. But we sign away the money. So the EU has no need to give us a deal, and certainly no incentive to make the one they offered ‘better’ than the backstop. The European Court of Justice remains sovereign, as repeatedly stipulated. Perhaps most damagingly of all, we agree to sign away the rights we would have, under international law, to unilaterally walk away. Again, what follows relates (in most part) for the “transition” period. But the language is consistent with the E.U. imagining that this will be the final deal.

The top 40 horrors:

From the offset, we should note that this is an EU text, not a UK or international text. This has one source. The Brexit agreement is written in Brussels.

May says her deal means the UK leaves the EU next March. The Withdrawal Agreement makes a mockery of this. “All references to Member States and competent authorities of Member States…shall be read as including the United Kingdom.” (Art 6). Not quite what most people understand by Brexit. It goes on to spell out that the UK will be in the EU but without any MEPs, a commissioner or ECJ judges. We are effectively a Member State, but we are excused – or, more accurately, excluded – from attending summits. (Article 7)

The European Court of Justice is decreed to be our highest court, governing the entire Agreement – Art. 4. stipulates that both citizens and resident companies can use it. Art 4.2 orders our courts to recognise this. “If the European Commission considers that the United Kingdom has failed to fulfil an obligation under the Treaties or under Part Four of this Agreement before the end of the transition period, the European Commission may, within 4 years after the end of the transition period, bring the matter before the Court of Justice of the European Union”. (Art. 87)

The jurisdiction of the ECJ will last until eight years after the end of the transition period. (Article 158).

The UK will still be bound by any future changes to EU law in which it will have no say, not to mention having to comply with current law. (Article 6(2))

Any disputes under the Agreement will be decided by EU law only – one of the most dangerous provisions. (Article 168). This cuts the UK off from International Law, something we’d never do with any foreign body.

Arbitration will be governed by the existing procedural rules of the EU law – this is not arbitration as we would commonly understand it (i.e. between two independent parties). (Article 174)

“UNDERLINING that this Agreement is founded on an overall balance of benefits, rights and obligations for the Union and the United Kingdom” No, it should be based upon the binding legal obligations upon the EU contained within Article 50. It is wrong to suggest otherwise.

The tampon tax clause: We obey EU laws on VAT, with no chance of losing the tampon tax even if we agree a better deal in December 2020 because we hereby agree to obey other EU VAT rules for five years after the transition period. Current EU rules prohibit 0-rated VAT on products (like tampons) that did not have such exemptions before the country joined the EU.

Several problems with the EU’s definitions: “Union law” is too widely defined and “United Kingdom national” is defined by the Lisbon Treaty: we should given away our right to define our citizens. The “goods” and the term “services” we are promised the deal are not defined – or, rather, will be defined however the EU wishes them to be. Thus far, this a non-defined term so far. This agreement fails to define it.

The Mandelson Pension Clause: The UK must promise never to tax former EU officials based here – such as Peter Mandelson or Neil Kinnock – on their E.U. pensions, or tax any current Brussels bureaucrats on their salaries. The EU and its employees are to be immune to our tax laws. (Article 104)

Furthermore, the UK agrees not to prosecute EU employees who are, or who might be deemed in future, criminals (Art.101)

The GDPR clause. The General Data Protection Regulation – the EU’s stupidest law ever? – is to be bound into UK law (Articles 71 to 73). There had been an expectation in some quarters that the UK could get out of it.

The UK establishes a ‘Joint Committee’ with EU representatives to guarantee ‘the implementation and application of this Agreement’. This does not sound like a withdrawal agreement – if it was, why would it need to be subject to continued monitoring? (Article 164). This Joint Committee will have subcommittees with jurisdiction over: (a) citizens’ rights; (b) “other separation provisions”; (c) Ireland/Northern Ireland; (d) Sovereign Base Areas in Cyprus; (e) Gibraltar; and (f) financial provisions. (Article 165)

The Lifetime clause: the agreement will last as long as the country’s youngest baby lives. “the persons covered by this Part shall enjoy the rights provided for in the relevant Titles of this Part for their lifetime”. (Article 39).

The UK is shut out of all EU networks and databases for security – yet no such provision exists to shut the EU out of ours. (Article 8)

The UK will tied to EU foreign policy, “bound by the obligations stemming from the international agreements concluded by the Union” but unable to influence such decisions. (Article 124)

All EU citizens must be given permanent right of residence after five years – but what counts as residence? This will be decided by the EU, rather than UK rules. (Articles 15-16)

Britain is granted the power to send a civil servant to Brussels to watch them pass stupid laws which will hurt our economy. (Article 34)

The UK agrees to spend taxpayers’ money telling everyone how wonderful the agreement is. (Article 37)

Art 40 defines Goods. It seems to includes Services and Agriculture. We may come to discover that actually ‘goods’ means everything.

Articles 40-49 practically mandate the UK’s ongoing membership of the Customs Union in all but name.

The UK will be charged to receive the data/information we need in order to comply with EU law. (Article 50)

The EU will continue to set rules for UK intellectual property law (Article 54 to 61)

The UK will effectively be bound by a non-disclosure agreement swearing us to secrecy regarding any EU developments we have paid to be part. This is not mutual. The EU is not bound by such measures. (Article 74)

The UK is bound by EU rules on procurement rules – which effectively forbids us from seeking better deals elsewhere. (Articles 75 to 78)

We give up all rights to any data the EU made with our money (Art. 103)
The EU decide capital projects (too broadly defined) the UK is liable for. (Art. 144)

The UK is bound by EU state aid laws until future agreement – even in the event of an agreement, this must wait four years to be valid. (Article 93)

Similar advantages and immunities are extended to all former MEPs and to former EU official more generally. (Articles 106-116)

The UK is forbidden from revealing anything the EU told us or tells us about the finer points of deal and its operation. (Article 105).

Any powers the UK parliament might have had to mitigate EU law are officially removed. (Article 128)

The UK shall be liable for any “outstanding commitments” after 2022 (Article 142(2) expressly mentions pensions, which gives us an idea as to who probably negotiated this). The amount owed will be calculated by the EU. (Articles 140-142)

The UK will be liable for future EU lending. As anyone familiar with the EU’s financials knows, this is not good. (Article143)

The UK will remain liable for capital projects approved by the European Investment Bank. (Article 150).

The UK will remain a ‘party’ (i.e. cough up money) for the European Development Fund. (Articles 152-154) And the EU continues to calculate how much money the UK should pay it. So thank goodness Brussels does not have any accountancy issues.

The UK will remain bound (i.e coughing up money) to the European Union Emergency Trust Fund – which deals with irregular migration (i.e. refugees) and displaced persons heading to Europe. (Article 155)

The agreement will be policed by ‘the Authority’ – a new UK-based body with ‘powers equivalent to those of the European Commission’. (Article 159)

The EU admits, in Art. 184, that it is in breach of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty which oblige it to “conclude an agreement” of the terms of UK leaving the EU. We must now, it seems, “negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship.” And if the EU does not? We settle down to this Agreement.

And, of course, the UK will agree to pay £40bn to receive all of these ‘privileges’. (Article 138)