To be upset with this dinner lady?

[KitKatCHA]

Pretty sure INBU but making sure. Today my son was a few minutes late getting to the dinner hall as he was finishing up his work with his class teacher. He got to the dinner hall and the dinner lady told him his year group had already gone in then said to him, 'are you stupid'

My son is 8 and had SN, he is incapable of lying and I believe him 100%. I have told the headteacher and have a meeting tomorrow to discuss in further detail. DS is really upset by this, he struggles with feelings of inadequacy due to his additional needs. I want to escalate this is high as possible, what should I be saying to the headteacher tomorrow?

Miscible I agree totally with you but some people have zero understanding of special needs and always see the world through their own experience only. A little empathy and sympathy to this poor child is due. Before anyone jumps down my throat yes there’s a lot of parents out there who totally believe their kids are angels but they are normal developmental children or at least not autistic

I think I would ask that support staff are given extra training in how to talk to students and be told that the word ‘stupid’ is not to be used

You do realise that support staff are individuals and just because one person may have said something inappropriate that does not mean that all support staff need extra training.

he does not lie, ever until he does, and you won’t know when that is.

Some additional needs result in the child being very unlikely to lie, but also being very upset about being told their stupid - autism spectrum disorder comes to mind.

ASD certainly does not mean a child will accurately perceive and describe all social interactions.

Before anyone jumps down my throat yes there’s a lot of parents out there who totally believe their kids are angels but they are normal developmental children or at least not autistic

I don't believe any parent thinks their child is an actual 'angel' and can do no wrong. I'd say those parents just ignore the niggles in the back of their minds and go into denial mode.

But many children with SN do eventually learn to lie. It doesn't come naturally to them, but they can (and often do) learn to do it in the end.

I don't think anyone's suggesting this is the case here as no-one here knows the child, but it won't do the OP any harm to be more open minded WRT finding out what was actually said.

Wow I would take this as far as possible, disgusting! And if nothing got dine about it then I would be having a few words with her myself, face to face!

Maybe he didn't lie, but maybe he did mishear or misinterpret, she might have told him to stop acting silly, or to stop being stupid if she thought he was just messing around and trying to get into dinner at the wrong time. Obviously he and you are more sensitive to that than most children as he may have heard it as an insult which is understandable, and there's a lesson there for her about being mindful of language regardless of the context or intention, but going in all guns blazing 'she definitely did this, my son isn't a liar' probably isn't going to get you the outcome you want.

I can well believe that some children have SN which mean that they are unable to lie, but it doesn't follow that they won't get the wrong end of the sick sometimes. You need to handle this calmly, with an open mind.

She might deny it, but if its true she will feel guilty, and not do it again, one would hope.
perhaps she is stupid

Not sure what special needs has to do with it

maybe because a child with special needs is already likely to feel inadequete and stupid next to his classmates? maybe because special needs often come with anxiety and low self-esteem? i'd think it was fairly obvious what it has to do with it.

OP, you do need to speak to the head and clarify the situation, but after a TA in my child's school repeatedly has accused of him faking an injury to get out of PE in recent months then i'm also inclined to believe your child, and think there really are some poeple who shouldn't be allowed small kids, let alone small kids with SEN.

@MrsStrowman, 'don't be stupid' isn't any better than 'are you stupid?' when speaking to any child. its not a word that should be used to describe a child's behaviour in school full stop.

Well firstly you can’t be 100% sure your son isn’t at least mistaken so you need to report what your son has told you and let te school investigate.
One of my dc was called stupid by a pe teacher. They don’t have sen but I was pretty sure it had happened. They don’t have form for lying and are pretty much a model student, prefect etc. I reported what my child had told me to their class teacher and they apologised for it happening on the spot. She also told me a few days later that a ta verified what had been said and the pe teacher had been spoken to by the deputy head. I was glad about this as my dc told me that this particular teacher had often before used the word stupid towards other children and in the same lesson had told a boy in their class (who does have Sen) that he was an idiot. Dc still isn’t a huge fan of the pe teacher but reports they have modified the way they speak to the class and no longer use those kinds of words so I’m glad I spoke to the school about it.

@OwlBeThere hence my point about lessons needing to be learned by the dinner lady about language choices.

But you said he might have misheard or misinterpreted, ‘don’t be stupid’ is not either of those things.

So after telling him his group had gone already she randomly asks him if hes stupid? It doesnt make sense. I would rather find out exactly what happened and take it from there.

Agree with losing that attitude that your child doesnt lie. That's going to cause far more problems down the lie than this issue .

Ok he may have misinterpreted or she may have said it. Chsnces are she does not know about his additional needs. I think making the point he was upset is enough. You seem to be overreacting a bit.

Go in calmly and report it OP; it will be taken seriously. Remember that the dinner lady is well known to her line manager, so her personality and turn of phrase will be familiar to them.

She won’t be sacked over one incident, but will be spoken to about appropriate language.

Don’t badmouth her to your son; stay factual. ‘You aren’t stupid; in fact nobody is stupid, so Ms X was wrong to say that.’

Good luck.

perhaps start by asking some clarification on an incident yesterday - as your son seemed upset by something that was said - than say what he heard- but remember while he might not be good at lying he may have been flustered or have misheard/misinterpreted some of the language - the act of bringing this to the attention of the teacher may make the person more careful. However, we can all say things before considering the implication especially if under stress even if we don't mean them come out the way they do.

I want to escalate this is high as possible

Lizzie48
I can well believe that some children have SN which mean that they are unable to lie, but it doesn't follow that they won't get the wrong end of the sick sometimes.

this ^

I read the he can't lie comment to be linked to the SEN. I thought some people with additional needs just did not understand the concept of lying, so never do.

I don't think the dinner lady should lose her job but she does need training. It's not ok to speak to anyone like that.

YANBU.

Strange replies on your thread. The dinner lady was out of order and is in the wrong job if she can't be polite to the clients she works for. Imagine a catering worker saying are you are stupid to an office worker.

You should go in, but speak calmly and professionally and find ouot what happened. At the very least the dinner lady needs to be reminded that she can't talk like that to the children. Of course the fact that your son is SN matters, he is more likely to feel inadequate if is struggling.

It actually could have been disablist from the dinner lady, worth finding out.

"What do you want? For the dinner lady to lose her job?" lettuce are you stupid?

I think you need to ask for context.
Your son in his interpretation of events believed he was called stupid and that needs to be investigated.

The dinner lady obviously called him stupid for him to be so upset, but in what context? Is she the type of person who has very good relationships with the children and laugh/play with children, but who on this occasion got it wrong (wrong child to joke with as he takes things literally.)

For a person to just call another person stupid out of the blue is unusual (but not impossible) so you definitely need it investigating.

This is mumsnet in its “schools can do no wrong” mode.

OP, I believe your son. He’s never been known to lie and it’s hardly implausible that a “dinner lady” might have spoken like this. Not everyone is sufficiently aware of their language choices and sensitive about them. Low paid support staff might well be in this group.

And of course you should escalate this as high as possible. If you get no satisfaction from the Gead then feel free to contact the Board of Governors or local authority, except that I think the Head will share your concern. There’s nothing about “escalation” that implies “all guns blazing” to me. Rather, a controlled serious formal approach.

I’m actually quite annoyed at the number of people suggesting the child is more likely to have lied than the staff member said the word “stupid”. No wonder children are so often dismissed when they try to advocate for themselves.

OP, ask to speak to the head and be calm and factual and ask them to investigate and tell you the outcome.

I think it’s quite likely when asked about it, she’ll say she did call him stupid and not see any problem with that.

The dinner lady was out of order and is in the wrong job if she can't be polite to the clients she works for.

School children aren’t clients and the midday supervisor works either directly for the school or for the local authority commercial services department.