To destroy my mother's happiness to protect my daughter from my father? Please help me.

[Haahhpy]

I'm sorry in advance that this will be long. There's a lot of history and the back story is necessary. I am worried about the influence of my dad on my daughter (12 weeks old) but it would completely devestate my mum to restrict her contact with her granddaughter. There are several aspects I need help and advice on.

My dad is a very difficult man. He is I think extremely emotionally abusive. He has been diagnosed with depression but I am unsure whether there is some other mental health disorder which is undiagnosed (he lies to the GP). His default reaction to any adversity in life is rage. This used to be directed at me and my brother but since we left home this is focused solely on my mum. He can go months being very nice and kind, he's very good at DIY and loves to help people. But then when something goes wrong (can be quite a small thing) or there's any kind of slight disagreement in the family he will just turn. He becomes so angry, shouts and yells, says terrible things, is menacing and hostile. This can go on for weeks or months with long periods where he just completely ignored your existence (as a teenager living at home with him he once did not acknowledge me or speak to me for three whole months). He also gaslights when he is in these episodes (and I know the term is bandied around but I mean properly). He hides things like keys etc, breaks things and denies it, rewrites history, swears black is white and makes you question your sanity. He has had therapy, he's on antidepressants, he's done CBT and mindfulness courses. There have been numerous 'showdowns' and ultimatums about his behaviour. Things will improve for a while and each time we all start thinking maybe he has changed but eventually he slides back to his old patterns of behaviour.

My mum is a kind, patient, gentle woman. She has spent the last 35 years trying to 'fix' him. She spends a lot of her life miserable because of his episodes. We have a very close relationship and speak or see each other every day (usually just us, not with my dad too). I have thought for as long as I can remember that she should leave which she knows but does not have the strength to do / chooses not to. I feel like my heart is actually breaking watching how much he hurts her.

Through the years there have been times when I gave cut him off completely but gradually for my mum's sake I have let him back in to my life. For full disclosure out of me, my mum and brother I am the least affected by him and his behaviour. I have never been afraid of him like they are. I call him out on his shit and will say it like it is (have told him to his face I think he's an emotional abuser). He hates this as he can't stand being disagreed with. Also, for full honesty he was physically violent with me a few times growing up (kicked me quite hard a few times etc) but as I said our personalities do clash and I always gave as good as I got (verbally as I was obviously no match for him physically). I have told him that any relationship we have is for mum's benefit only.

When they found out I was pregnant both my parents were overjoyed (it's their first grandchild). They immediately offered to provide childcare for her when I go back to work and were generally very excited for the future. My dad loves kids and we all thought maybe this would be a fresh start for him. Looking after her would give his days meaning and purpose and he seemed very positive about the future so all was well. We were all very hopeful.

Fast forward to this week. His estranged step father died (virtually NC for 20 years) and he's gone into a tailspin. Screaming and raging at my mum to the point she had to come to stay with me. All our hopes that he'd changed have been dashed again.

I'm now wondering if leaving my daughter with him is an irresponsible move. I don't honestly think he'd ever hurt her but I want her to be influenced by seeing positive relationships as she grows up, not abusive ones. However, when I broached this with my mum she was devestated. She's so looking forward to having her when I'm back to work the thought of missing out on that destroyed her. I know people will say she shouldn't depend on her grandchild for happiness but what else has she got while living with him?

So to my AIBUs:

1: AIBU to accept their offer and let them care for my daughter (possibly but setting good toke midels for relationships). I feel incapable of hurting my mum by taking this away from her when I think it's basically her only source of real happiness.

2: OR AIBU to be so hard on my dad when he does after all have mental health issues? I am so unclear in my own mind how much of his behaviour is illness or if it's abuse? Where do you draw the line? And how much should you tolerate while making excuses because of his mental health? I'm so confused as to whether I'm a cold bitch with no sympathy for mental illness or whether my mum is just buying into the old chestnut that all abusive men are actually tortured souls who need a woman to save them.

Sorry it's so long and thank you if you've read to the end. Any opinions or advice are welcome. Thank you x

As per pp, the fact that you're even considering this shows how badly your childhood has affected you.

It's up to your mum whether she stays with him or leaves. You can't let her choices dictate your ability to keep your DC safe
But she's spent your entire life justifying not putting her DC first, please don't follow in her footsteps.

I mean this kindly, but seriously if you left your vulnerable baby with this man I would call SOcial services
You need to tell your mum the choice is your dad or her grandchild
I know this is being dramatic but one child dies every week do you really want your precious child to be a statistic ?
Sadly I don't your mum will have any confidence left to leave after 35 years , I if she was my mum I would be making her very welcome in my house right now
All the best xxx

I do agree with the other responses op. Like you I come from a dysfunctional background, but it's my mother that's the angry one. My father agrees with her for a quiet life, and I blame him more, because he actually knows she isn't normal - whereas I believe my mother has undiagnosed mental health problems.

What I will say is that once my mother knew I would stand up to her, and that seeing DS was dependent on her behaving, she suddenly managed to do that - despite my father telling me my whole childhood that she couldn't help it.

So they did have DS 1 day per week, but there was a showdown before that where she realised I was serious about NC.

They have been good GPs but they knew any toe out of line, and they'd never see him again. And as DS got older, I told him (in an age appropriate way) about my upbringing. He knows they have issues and isn't taken in my their 'we're so perfect' routine.

But it sounds like your dad hasn't accepted he needs to change and unless that happens, I wouldn't be leaving your dd.

You need to protect your DD - she is your responsibility. To be honest your Mother isn't.
She needs to take charge of her own destiny (there is a small/tiny chance that this may be the push she needs, but regardless...). Your DD is not big enough to look after herself.
Your Mother should have been there for you, she should have been standing up to your father. She has betrayed you and your brother, maybe out of fear but that isn't really an excuse for an adult.

You could read the Stately Homes thread (in Relationships) and see if it strikes any chords. Or read Toxic Families.

Your mother makes her own decisions.

You have to make your decision in the best interests of your dc.

How DM feels, what DM does, how you feel because of it ... none of this alters the fact that the right and correct thing to do is withdraw the childcare arrangement for the sake of your DD. Because she's a baby and she deserves a clean safe start in life.

How to deal with the mental fall out for you is another matter. One which you can get lots of support with here and IRL OP.

You aren’t responsible for your mother’s happiness. The fact that you feel like you are shows that you have been damaged, not only by him, but by her failure to protect you. However well intentioned, she did not protect her children. Be better than her. I really do feel for you, but the bottom line is your child needs you to protect her. Put your efforts into your daughter’s happiness, please.

Children are incredibly obtuse and push boundaries constantly. It doesn't sound like your DF would handle this. Nobody will be there to stand up for her if he loses his temper. I wouldn't risk it.

Have you mum come to your house to babysit. If your dad wants to see your dd, do it when you are there.

I’m sorry OP but your mum isn’t innocent here. Not by a long shot. She may have goodness in her but she also stuck by an abusive arsehole who was violent to you. She prioritised him over you. She has continually forgiven how he has treated her children.

Therefore you need to stop taking all this responsibility for her happiness into your shoulders. She could have noticed how much damage he was doing as a father and left him YEARS ago. So why are you feeling like because you want to (rightly!) protect your little one from him you are breaking her heart and ruining her life?! She made dreadful decisions and why she would be horrified and in shock over you wanting to keep your child from him I don’t know.

Don’t make her happiness your responsibility. She chose her life. And now you must protect your baby’s.

OPs mum is ALSO a victim of this mans torment.

No he should not be left in charge of your child at all unless your there, and this in its self is away that should wake him up to not be such a selfish arsehole.

OP your coming into a lions den, half the people who comment here only comment to make you feel shit, and if they were in your position they probably wouldn’t take the abusive advice they give you.

I’m so sorry for how you feel. I’m in my mid twenties and feel responsible to a certain degree for my mums happiness. I’m all she’s got. She’s my mum. It sounds like your mums the one who needs help in all of this. Downtrodden woman, like so many of them are.

Lots of love to you and your bundle OP xo

I would actually explain your reasoning to them both. Also, I think it's great that you and your mum have a good relationship, but harsh as it sounds, she wasn't able to protect you from your dad's behaviour. She's lucky to still have you.

OP I'm so sorry you are in this awful situation. Sounds like you have been very strong to get through your childhood with such a volatile father.

You are right. Your mother will be heartbroken and that's really sad. Unfortunately, she lost all of her credentials as a caregiver when she failed to protect you from your abusive father.

Your mum did not prioritise her children over this horrible man what confidences do you have that she will be stronger with the next generation?
If you don't set firm rules now ie " mum childcare is only in my house, and only mum present" then it will be easier for him to get his way

Will he gaslight you into thinking you are a bad mum to get his way?

OP you have my sympathy. I could have written a lot of that myself. You know you can’t accept the offer to mind you’re little girl. I let my dm mind my baby one day every month and had to stop because I fell out with my father over his behaviour towards me. It’s a very long story and very similar to yours, I’d be happy to chat to you via private message if you want..

your bloody autocorrect

"The fact that you are even considering this as a possibility indicates you’ve been more affected by the abuse than you perhaps realise"

Yup-it's an absolute no brainer.

Do I leave my baby with someone who might hurt them?

There is only one answer.

Sounds like your relationship with your mum has reversed- you are the one trying to protect and nurture her rather than the other way round. She let you down as children.

My mother has been the same and this year I totally fucking snapped. I am sick of protecting her when she is a bloody adult. I have told her I don’t want to listen to any more of her crap excuses about my dads behaviour and I have distanced myself. It has been heartbreaking but I will not pander to her toxic relationship anymore.

You absolutely cannot leave your daughter with them. Even just your mum; he would go mental or manage to manipulate her into letting him have your daughter. Your mother MAKES A CHOICE to stay with an abusive man who assaulted his own daughter. She is an adult. If she makes a choice she needs to live with the consequences of that choice.

My anger isn’t aimed at you by the way OP. I have walked your path and sometimes you cannot take anymore. Sometimes you realise that people have to live with their decisions, no matter what shit or abuse is involved. You sound bloody sensible and like you have learnt a lot from their mistakes. Good luck!

@likeshyt I don’t agree with your point: the Op’s mum is certainly downtrodden, but adults make a CHOICE about their lives and who they stay with, and as a parent you put your children first. No way in hell would I be able to turn a blind eye to my husband being violent and abusive to our children. I have never been able to forgive my mother for backing up and sticking by my violent abusive stepdad and we do not have a relationship now. I think you’ll find a lot of the people giving advice here have more experience of these matters than you might think.

If she's miserable without him I'll blame myself

again you are worrying about your mum and what may happen to her but what about dd and what may happen to her?

I think you need to show your DM this thread and all the responses you've had. Explain to your DM that there is always a place for her but that this vicious circle stops. If anything were to happen to your precious child, you both would never forgive yourself. You know yourself, it's not just physical. It's mental abuse too. And once something is ingrained into you it's very very hard to get rid of that negative voice. Don't subject your baby to that too.

OP I rarely comment on threads but please listen to me when I say: I grew up with an abusive step-father. Your dad sounds exactly the same. My step-dad kept all his behaviour behind closed doors. Everyone outside the family thought he was great. He beat my mum and broke her neck. He hit me repeatedly. My mum wouldn't leave him and I wouldn't leave my mum. After years I had to tell my mum that if she went back to him again then she wouldn't see me again. She filed for divorce and is now happy. I've recently had a baby and mum said something the other day along the lines of "if anyone ever hurt our baby I'd kill them". I thought to myself "well you let someone hurt me". I love my mum unconditionally but I have so much resentment for her. She was a victim but she was also the adult and I was a child. She is the reason that now, at the age of 35, I start shaking and crying when my neighbours row because it reminds me of listening to the fights as a child. I have so much mental anguish now because of it. Please don't do that to your little girl. I hope that if you give your mum this ultimatum she finds the strength to leave your dad xx

I can't believe you ever considered it would be ok to leave your baby with this couple. Shows how you have normalized their appalling behaviour. The fact your mother also thought it would be ok speaks volumes.

You're worried about causing your mom to be unhappy but what about your child? Leaving them with your father could leave them unhappy.

Are you really more worried about the feelings of a grown adult who failed to protect you over the safety and wellbeing of your own child?

You're going to have to toughen up and tell your mom that she won't be doing childcare. Tell her why, and I think you need to tell your father as well. Probably best to have your husband there for support.