To destroy my mother's happiness to protect my daughter from my father? Please help me.

[Haahhpy]

I'm sorry in advance that this will be long. There's a lot of history and the back story is necessary. I am worried about the influence of my dad on my daughter (12 weeks old) but it would completely devestate my mum to restrict her contact with her granddaughter. There are several aspects I need help and advice on.

My dad is a very difficult man. He is I think extremely emotionally abusive. He has been diagnosed with depression but I am unsure whether there is some other mental health disorder which is undiagnosed (he lies to the GP). His default reaction to any adversity in life is rage. This used to be directed at me and my brother but since we left home this is focused solely on my mum. He can go months being very nice and kind, he's very good at DIY and loves to help people. But then when something goes wrong (can be quite a small thing) or there's any kind of slight disagreement in the family he will just turn. He becomes so angry, shouts and yells, says terrible things, is menacing and hostile. This can go on for weeks or months with long periods where he just completely ignored your existence (as a teenager living at home with him he once did not acknowledge me or speak to me for three whole months). He also gaslights when he is in these episodes (and I know the term is bandied around but I mean properly). He hides things like keys etc, breaks things and denies it, rewrites history, swears black is white and makes you question your sanity. He has had therapy, he's on antidepressants, he's done CBT and mindfulness courses. There have been numerous 'showdowns' and ultimatums about his behaviour. Things will improve for a while and each time we all start thinking maybe he has changed but eventually he slides back to his old patterns of behaviour.

My mum is a kind, patient, gentle woman. She has spent the last 35 years trying to 'fix' him. She spends a lot of her life miserable because of his episodes. We have a very close relationship and speak or see each other every day (usually just us, not with my dad too). I have thought for as long as I can remember that she should leave which she knows but does not have the strength to do / chooses not to. I feel like my heart is actually breaking watching how much he hurts her.

Through the years there have been times when I gave cut him off completely but gradually for my mum's sake I have let him back in to my life. For full disclosure out of me, my mum and brother I am the least affected by him and his behaviour. I have never been afraid of him like they are. I call him out on his shit and will say it like it is (have told him to his face I think he's an emotional abuser). He hates this as he can't stand being disagreed with. Also, for full honesty he was physically violent with me a few times growing up (kicked me quite hard a few times etc) but as I said our personalities do clash and I always gave as good as I got (verbally as I was obviously no match for him physically). I have told him that any relationship we have is for mum's benefit only.

When they found out I was pregnant both my parents were overjoyed (it's their first grandchild). They immediately offered to provide childcare for her when I go back to work and were generally very excited for the future. My dad loves kids and we all thought maybe this would be a fresh start for him. Looking after her would give his days meaning and purpose and he seemed very positive about the future so all was well. We were all very hopeful.

Fast forward to this week. His estranged step father died (virtually NC for 20 years) and he's gone into a tailspin. Screaming and raging at my mum to the point she had to come to stay with me. All our hopes that he'd changed have been dashed again.

I'm now wondering if leaving my daughter with him is an irresponsible move. I don't honestly think he'd ever hurt her but I want her to be influenced by seeing positive relationships as she grows up, not abusive ones. However, when I broached this with my mum she was devestated. She's so looking forward to having her when I'm back to work the thought of missing out on that destroyed her. I know people will say she shouldn't depend on her grandchild for happiness but what else has she got while living with him?

So to my AIBUs:

1: AIBU to accept their offer and let them care for my daughter (possibly but setting good toke midels for relationships). I feel incapable of hurting my mum by taking this away from her when I think it's basically her only source of real happiness.

2: OR AIBU to be so hard on my dad when he does after all have mental health issues? I am so unclear in my own mind how much of his behaviour is illness or if it's abuse? Where do you draw the line? And how much should you tolerate while making excuses because of his mental health? I'm so confused as to whether I'm a cold bitch with no sympathy for mental illness or whether my mum is just buying into the old chestnut that all abusive men are actually tortured souls who need a woman to save them.

Sorry it's so long and thank you if you've read to the end. Any opinions or advice are welcome. Thank you x

It would be utterly irresponsible of you to leave your child with a man who you know is a violent abuser of children.

Your baby is not the consolation prize for someone stuck in an unhappy marriage with a violent man.

Also, your job would then be dependent on you not falling out with him.

Also, DC starts at school/ nursery, and says to teacher, " I don't like going to Grandpa's in the holidays, sometimes he should so much we have to go out".
Yep, I wouldn't hesitate to make a safeguarding referral for that.

But mostly, there is no way you owe either of your parents the tiniest chance to do to your DC what they , both, did to you.

The gaslighting etc worked to an extent: otherwise you'd dismiss this in a heartbeat.

I also meant to add to my previous response, my husband and I are agreed that if (hopefully when!) we do have children, my parents (both of them, sadly my mum essentially enabled my dad's behaviour in much the same way as your mum seems to have done) will only be allowed to spend time with our children when either me or my husband are there (or possibly one of my siblings)

You have to put your DD first. You also have to stop thinking that you are unscathed by your upbringing or that his outbursts were 'water off a duck's back'. You've internalised very unhealthy relationship dynamics. For your DD's sake (if not your own) you should consider counselling. Becoming a parent often causes childhood trauma and parenting patterns to resurface.

Your mum made a choice to stay with an abuser and subject her innocent children to him. Don’t let her guilt you into doing the same with your daughter.
This is exactly what I was going to say. Also you and your mother seem to have reversed roles, and you are parenting her. Probably a role you learned in childhood and a role no child should have to take on. I'm sorry but I can't believe you are even considering voluntarily exposing your child to such an abusive man.

The fact that you are even considering this as a possibility indicates you’ve been more affected by the abuse than you perhaps realise and that it’s become somewhat normalised to you.

Your mum has failed to protect her children from emotional and physical abuse. For this reason, I wouldn’t trust her judgement and don’t think that she is a suitable person to care for your daughter. Your father is emotionally and physically abusive and therefore not a suitable person to care for your DD either.

Please question your own judgement that you are considering leaving the most precious person in your life with either of these people. I’m sorry for what you went through growing up but please protect your DD. Maybe some counselling for yourself may help.

I know you probably think that your mum is ok but the fact that she puts up with being treated like this isn’t good for your DD. Even if your dad isn’t there, your DD will pick up on tensions from your mum, hear phonecalls your mum has with your dad, etc. Don’t underestimate the damage this can do. Your mum has obviously made a very poor decision to stay with your dad and allow her DC to grow up in this environment. I wouldn’t trust her not to make other poor decisions involving your DD. She has failed to protect you, it’s likeky she will fail to protect your DD.

Op I have to tell you something- you’re not responsible for your mothers happiness. She is.

Your main responsibility is to your child and you absolutely cannot have your father around your child. He is an abusive bully and if you allow him to be around your child you are sending him- and your mum- a message that his behaviour is acceptable.

This is the time where this ends. Put your foot down.

Shouts, not should

Well pretty inanimoiat then OP!

I would say about his control, is he known for it when he's out, or only within is own family, all of whom were less physical than him?
If he's losing it in the local shop and with others its mental illness or anger management if not, its bullying and control.

Either way, he's not suitable, and because your DM is scared of his/does not leave, he can oveerule her with his behaviours, so dd wouldnt be safe either. Surely she can see tha. That if she could stop him in his tracks or keep him out of yours, or not get it in the neck when she got home maybe, but can she say any of those things, then no. So sad, but in reality she knows the reality, and is ignoring what that actually means, because she's so used to it.

*unanimous!

his histrionics have always been water off a ducks back
I'm used to making things better for her and it will be so hard for me to be the one contributing to her unhappiness.

The fact that you feel you are contributing to your mums unhappiness and are used to making thins better for her indicates that it isn’t water off a dicks back but the abuse has actually affected you quite deeply

That post is actually really sad to read.

You *know^ you can't sacrifice your dd to help your mum.

Your dm had a choice to protect you and your db from your f when you were little. She failed. Don't repeat the cycle of abuse. And who knows, perhaps the prospect of losing contact with her dgc will be the prompt she needs to finally protect herself from him.

" It just feels like the cruellest thing in the world to take that from her "

She couldn't/wouldn't protect you from him.

Don't put your baby in that position.

" Screaming and raging at my mum to the point she had to come to stay with me. "

She can't protect herself.

Should you put the needs of your child above the needs of your mother?

Yes.

Your mother didn't protect you. She's not going to protect your daughter.

And its not your job to look after your mother.

The good relationship modelling you need to be thinking about for your daughter is also about how you interact with your mother.

Maybe you're right and I am more affected than I let myself acknowledge. I should say that I have chosen a kind wonderful even tempered husband who is a wonderful father. He is reluctant after this latest episode to accept the childcare too. However, I think like many men like him, my dad is masterful at disguising his behaviour on front of non immediate family. Most acquaintances would say what a great guy he is. Due to the nature of the emotional abuse its very hard to convey to other people what it's like and how bad it feels (comes out often sounding petty) so even my husband is only just now really seeing his true colours.

I just feel if I take this away from my mum it will push her to leave him. While I think this is the right decision I know it's not what she wants to do. If she is pushed to do it by me so that she sees her grandchild I just know I will feel eternally responsible for her happiness. If she's miserable without him I'll blame myself.

If your mum chooses her H over your dd then you know exactly how important you and your dd really are to her.

OP you absolutely have to put your daughter first. Your mum has proved that she puts your dad before anyone - including her own children so I'm not sure I would trust her to look after her without allowing her access to your father. Your mum's happiness is not your responsibility. I'm sorry you are in this position and am in awe that you are able to compartmentalise your fathers behaviour. I'm sure you're more traumatised that you realise. Bit absolutely put your baby first. You can right any wrongs in the past by doing this. It will not be easy. But repeat. Your mum's happiness is not your responsibility. I know you love her but she had her chance to do the right thing. Do what's right for your daughter. Biggest hugs. X

OR AIBU to be so hard on my dad when he does after all have mental health issues? I am so unclear in my own mind how much of his behaviour is illness or if it's abuse? Where do you draw the line? And how much should you tolerate while making excuses because of his mental health?

You shouldn't tolerate any abuse, no matter what the cause. I don't think in this case it matters what the cause of the behaviour is - the effect is abusive. And you're not there to fix him. You're not obliged to fix him or put up with him. it might be that he does have mental illness but that doesn't mean he can abuse people.

And I agree with PP - you're not responsible for your mother's happiness. As difficult as leaving someone is, she could do it.

Not a chance I would ever let him see her unless I was in the same room. No way.

The fact that you are even considering this as a possibility indicates you’ve been more affected by the abuse than you perhaps realise

I was going to say this.

This will seem harsh but you are thinking of leaving your tiny vulnerable child to be cared for by a violent and abusive man so that your mum isnt upset!?

You are putting a competent adult, free to make all her own choices, above your baby who relies completely on you for everything. She can leave him and care for the baby so you are not completely refusing.

you should frankly have never said yes in the first place.

It's your job as a mother to keep your child emotionally and physically safe. I'm sorry that your mum didn't do that for you.
You have to put the needs of your child above the wants of an abusive man and a women that didn't leave him even though he was hurting her children.

I also found your post hard to read.
I'm sorry but you must protect your daughter, you mum failed to protect her children, she won't protect yours.
If as you say this is her push to leave him then that's on her, it will be her choice. The fact you feel responsible says a lot about the damage he has done to you all. I'm sympathetic to anyone with health issues but he has had a long while to seek and accept help.
At the end of the day abuse it abuse whatever the cause and no one should tolerate it and certainly never expose their children to it.

God, this is harder to read than I was expecting

The fact that you blame yourself for your mum’s misery is really telling. I think you haven’t dealt with his abuse in as much of a “water off a ducks back” way as you’ve convinced yourself. Not that I blame you AT ALL! It’s a classic result of being the child of an abuser, and I’d be more shocked if it hadn’t affected you. You aren’t responsible for her happiness. You can see form a logical perspective that it’s not ok to put your daughter in the hands of an abuser OR the abusers enabler, right? I know you love your mum, but it’s not your job and absolutely never will be your daughter’s job to smooth things over and keep your dad sweet. Don’t put that toxic shit anywhere near your precious baby. Ever.

The best you can possibly say about your father's mental health is that he may have a condition and if so it is undiagnosed - on the basis that he is known not to give the full story to his GP, hasn't seen any other mental health professionals and has never had any form of treatment.

So please don't get dragged into any 'Oh but he has depression' bullshit'.

What he definitely is, is an emotional and physical abuser.

Your mother has been abused by him for many years and for some reason, perhaps expections of women and marriage, perhaps his abuse and gaslighting, perhaps love and a misguided idea she can fix him has stayed. As a result of this you and your brother have been exposed to considerable abuse.

It's now your turn to be a mother and you have to put your child first, in the way she never managed to (or thought she was by keeping her family together).

Your child can never be alone with your father, however much this hurts her. She can't live her life through you and her GC. She has to have her own life as do you.

I'd would say you have been very affected by the abuse, even if you don't think you have been, as your lives still seem so enmeshed. You are almost parenting your mother who is depending on daily chats for support.

Not only do I think your mum shouldn't be responsible for the child, I think you need to break away a bit as there is a lot of co-dependency going on.