To destroy my mother's happiness to protect my daughter from my father? Please help me.

[Haahhpy]

I'm sorry in advance that this will be long. There's a lot of history and the back story is necessary. I am worried about the influence of my dad on my daughter (12 weeks old) but it would completely devestate my mum to restrict her contact with her granddaughter. There are several aspects I need help and advice on.

My dad is a very difficult man. He is I think extremely emotionally abusive. He has been diagnosed with depression but I am unsure whether there is some other mental health disorder which is undiagnosed (he lies to the GP). His default reaction to any adversity in life is rage. This used to be directed at me and my brother but since we left home this is focused solely on my mum. He can go months being very nice and kind, he's very good at DIY and loves to help people. But then when something goes wrong (can be quite a small thing) or there's any kind of slight disagreement in the family he will just turn. He becomes so angry, shouts and yells, says terrible things, is menacing and hostile. This can go on for weeks or months with long periods where he just completely ignored your existence (as a teenager living at home with him he once did not acknowledge me or speak to me for three whole months). He also gaslights when he is in these episodes (and I know the term is bandied around but I mean properly). He hides things like keys etc, breaks things and denies it, rewrites history, swears black is white and makes you question your sanity. He has had therapy, he's on antidepressants, he's done CBT and mindfulness courses. There have been numerous 'showdowns' and ultimatums about his behaviour. Things will improve for a while and each time we all start thinking maybe he has changed but eventually he slides back to his old patterns of behaviour.

My mum is a kind, patient, gentle woman. She has spent the last 35 years trying to 'fix' him. She spends a lot of her life miserable because of his episodes. We have a very close relationship and speak or see each other every day (usually just us, not with my dad too). I have thought for as long as I can remember that she should leave which she knows but does not have the strength to do / chooses not to. I feel like my heart is actually breaking watching how much he hurts her.

Through the years there have been times when I gave cut him off completely but gradually for my mum's sake I have let him back in to my life. For full disclosure out of me, my mum and brother I am the least affected by him and his behaviour. I have never been afraid of him like they are. I call him out on his shit and will say it like it is (have told him to his face I think he's an emotional abuser). He hates this as he can't stand being disagreed with. Also, for full honesty he was physically violent with me a few times growing up (kicked me quite hard a few times etc) but as I said our personalities do clash and I always gave as good as I got (verbally as I was obviously no match for him physically). I have told him that any relationship we have is for mum's benefit only.

When they found out I was pregnant both my parents were overjoyed (it's their first grandchild). They immediately offered to provide childcare for her when I go back to work and were generally very excited for the future. My dad loves kids and we all thought maybe this would be a fresh start for him. Looking after her would give his days meaning and purpose and he seemed very positive about the future so all was well. We were all very hopeful.

Fast forward to this week. His estranged step father died (virtually NC for 20 years) and he's gone into a tailspin. Screaming and raging at my mum to the point she had to come to stay with me. All our hopes that he'd changed have been dashed again.

I'm now wondering if leaving my daughter with him is an irresponsible move. I don't honestly think he'd ever hurt her but I want her to be influenced by seeing positive relationships as she grows up, not abusive ones. However, when I broached this with my mum she was devestated. She's so looking forward to having her when I'm back to work the thought of missing out on that destroyed her. I know people will say she shouldn't depend on her grandchild for happiness but what else has she got while living with him?

So to my AIBUs:

1: AIBU to accept their offer and let them care for my daughter (possibly but setting good toke midels for relationships). I feel incapable of hurting my mum by taking this away from her when I think it's basically her only source of real happiness.

2: OR AIBU to be so hard on my dad when he does after all have mental health issues? I am so unclear in my own mind how much of his behaviour is illness or if it's abuse? Where do you draw the line? And how much should you tolerate while making excuses because of his mental health? I'm so confused as to whether I'm a cold bitch with no sympathy for mental illness or whether my mum is just buying into the old chestnut that all abusive men are actually tortured souls who need a woman to save them.

Sorry it's so long and thank you if you've read to the end. Any opinions or advice are welcome. Thank you x

Why doesn't your mother leave?

I wish with all my heart I could separate the two issues of my mum vs my dad but I can't.

Your mum could separate the issues though. The key thing is to understand that she is an autonomous adult that you are not responsible for. She has made her life choices and continues to do so.

It's honestly hard for me to comprehend that people don't feel responsible for the happiness of their loved ones though?

You are responsible for your daughter.

You Mum is emotionally blackmailing you so that you put her wellbeing above that of a 12 week old baby.

It might not be intentional or malicious but that is what she is doing when you get down to brass tacks.

So sorry you are in this situation. You have been manipulated by your DM to caretake her your whole life and now that needs to stop. I understand she has been damaged by your DF, but it still needs to stop. Your only priority is your DC and you need to stand up for her in direct contrast to what your DM did. If this means she is heartbroken then she will need to deal with it. As another poster said your DC is not a prize you have to offer up to keep her happy. Again, if she leaves your DF her happiness is not your responsibility, it is hers. Clear your head and put your foot down and become your DC's defender.

Your mum never made you and your siblings her priority. Your welfare should have been her priority. She chose to put your dad, and their relationship, first. My mother did exactly the same.

Don’t make the same mistake.

Wow, they've really done a number on you, haven't they?
You are responsible for your daughter, you have some responsibility towards others but are not responsible for them.
Your mum can't be saved, you can mop her up a bit but it won't change until she shifts. Perhaps you protecting your daughter wil help her see, maybe not. Leave these toxic people

She doesn't deserve to see her GD as much as she likes-or at all if that means exposing her GD to someone who is abusive!

Don't be like your mum Op-put your daughter first.

But OP, your Mum was responsible for your happiness and she saw fit to put your father first. You were therefore brought up with a father who physically assaulted you. If you put your mother's feelings over your daughter you will be doing much the same as she has always done.

^^ yes.

When are you thinking of going back to work? I had a year out so my DM and DF hardly had any time alone with my DC. For me, seeing how that first year went with me watching how my DF was with my DC helped me decide what I was going to do when going back to work (part time) when my DC was a year old.

Don't kid yourself that you're stronger because you've not not managed to break free from your father. I feel sorry for you and sorry for your mum but let's look at the facts here - you are considering, and your mum is prepared to, put your helpless, innocent child in harms way to avoid saying no to your abuser.

This is your daughter ffs. Your job is to protect her. Your mum wasnt strong enough to protect you - don't make her mistake.

You may love your mum but you need to face some uncomfortable truths about her. She may need to face some about herself.

You can't goad a loving parent into physically assaulting you so please stop saying it's because you argued back. Your allowed to stand up for yourself and it's good that you can.

It's your mum's choice babysit at yours or don't babysit. You support her either way and you love her either way.

Lots of love to you OP

Jesus. You would be completely bonkers to let them care for your baby. It is testament to your very difficult upbringing that you even need to ask .

Obviously, as most people have already said, send your dc to childminder / nursery.

I feel very sorry for your mum, but there is absolutely no way you should feel guilty about her not seeing her gc. That is absolutely not your fault.

Hi again Haahhpy, I had to come back and post again when I saw this comment you made: "I don't think he'd physically hurt my daughter". I have siblings much younger than me who have never been abused in the same manner as my sister and I (the oldest children) were. Dad had also never laid a finger on my mum. A few years ago I would have sworn til I was blue in the face that he had changed and wouldn't hit anyone blah blah blah. At that point, I would have left my child in the care of him and mum unsupervised (and possibly even overnight). Then he broke my little brother's nose in a fit of rage, and not too long after that my sister received a phone call from our little sister who was absolutely petrified cos my dad was going mental at my mum (punching, screaming, throwing things).

So, I'm really sorry, but please believe me when I say I speak from a position of experience and concern when I say that you'll never be able to be sure he's changed. As much as you might want to wish with all your heart that he's changed, you can never be sure and for me that's just a risk too far. I've worked too hard, and for too long, to build a life for myself that includes loving, positive relationships that there's no way I'm prepared to risk my children having to do the same thing!

OP I don't think when it comes down to it you will be able to leave your child in their care.

It's not being unsympathetic to mental health issues - either way if he's being ill or just being an aggressive violent bully, nothing he has tried has worked, and you can't leave your child with him

You can always ask your mum to look after your baby at your house, or use them for emergency childcare (when you're running late or when your child is ill and off nursery which will happen a lot in the first few years if they go to nursery). You could let them take your child for days out as it sounds like he is fine in front of other people.

It won't be best for anyone if your child is in her care - it doesn't sound like it has benefited your dad in the long run that there has been no consequences, it won't benefit your daughter to be around him, and it won't help you if you're constantly worrying. As you will, as it won't be water off a duck's back when it's your baby being yelled at. It may make your mum happy but you can't use your baby and put her in danger just to take your mum's mind off her being married to an abuser. It sounds crazy when it's written in black and white buy that's the only reason you're considering it as you don't want to upset her

Sorry if I've come across as harsh OP I think sometimes it's hard to see things clearly when you're so close to a situation

Your Mum should have left and protected you and your brother. But she didn't - she stayed and put her relationship with an abusive man over and above the welfare of her children.

I know that's going to be hard for you to read, but it's true.

You don't have a choice - you have to protect your tiny, vulnerable and fragile daughter. She's not a tool to give your Mum some purpose. Your DD's safety is paramount.

You know that she can't be left with him. You know that your Mum cannot be trusted not to give into your Dad if he insists on coming with her. You cannot leave her alone with either of them.

The amount you're minimising and how warped your feelings and priorities towards your mother are has made my jaw literally drop.

You've told yourself it didn't affect you but it blatantly has. Your relationship with your parents is not healthy, either of them.

You really really need to seek counselling for yourself, in addition to finding other childcare for your daughter, before you sacrifice another generation to your mother's needs and your father's abuse.

My daughter is of course my number one priority.
Sadly, your mother didn't feel the same thing with her own DCs. You and your DB weren't her priority, or she'd have left to keep you safe. Your Dad was her priority.

She's not a person you can trust with your DC, because she's shown she won't put their needs first.

my mum is just buying into the old chestnut that all abusive men are actually tortured souls who need a woman to save them - so are you OP.

I am your Mum. Only my DCs are younger, mid-late teens. But I have stayed with a verbally and emotionally abusive man for 30 years and paid a terrible price - the affect it had on my DDs. They constantly asked me "what is wrong with Dad?" and often talked about it being his mental health, and I always say to them no that's just how he is, sadly, but don't make excuses for him. He actually told me once that I should make excuses for him, to convince our DDs that he was right and was he said and did was ok, or he just did it as he was tired or didn't get enough respect from us etc - the list was endless.

I stayed because I was initially worried about money, and scared for myself, and then I stayed because I didn't want him to have access to the kids alone because I genuinely believed he would hurt them to get back at me. Sometimes I still worry about that.

Both DDs have been affected, one a lot more than the other. Difference is I am now desperate to leave, I always wanted to, and I have started putting my plans in place - I am 56, I wonder if I am the same age as your mum or thereabouts. Do you know what I say to my DDs? I say as soon as you can, go, get away. Go and live your lives as well as you can, break the cycle that my mum before me was in - in fact I know that the only thing I owe my late mother is to get out of this situation, as she died before she could leave her abusive husband.

I could never disappoint my DDs by staying with my husband, they both talk about how great it will be when I leave him, even though one of them says she will visit him, and even though I will miss him (that's perverse but only to be expected as we have been in this toxic mess together since I was 16). He never physically hurt my children (but I always worried he would) - your dad DID hurt you. Don't hand over your own child as some sort of reward to either of your parents. Is your mum seriously hoping to die in this situation, to let it go on for the rest of her life?

Maybe this line, the one you are drawing in the sand now, means that she will be able to make that change and enjoy a new relationship with you and her GD.

@AcrossthePond55 in my heart of hearts I think you're right. As much as having his grandchild in his life might help him control things at some point something would tip him over the edge and he will have another episode. I mean she's only 12 weeks old and already he's lost it.

It is hard reading the replies that it seems a concensus that my feelings about my mum's happiness are not 'normal'. I can honestly say that I was not expecting that. I was prepared to be told I shouldn't leave my baby with them (I think I know this really) but the stuff about my relationship with my mum is hard to swallow. I have always felt lucky to have such a close bond with her.

OP your post really resonated with me as it sounds like my dad was very similar to yours. Was your dad ok when you were little?

I remember my dad being a good dad up until the age of about 10 & then it was like he flipped. He completely rejected me, gaslighting, emotional and sometimes (more rarely) physical abuse, terrifying temper. I used to try so hard not to annoy him but it was a different thing every day that would set him off.

I was one of 3 and like you I was the one to stand up and argue with him often in an attempt to protect my mum. Much later in life I had counselling and what amazed me was the huge anger and resentment I had repressed against my mum (who I’ve always adored) for not protecting us by leaving him. Yes back In the 70’s it would have been very hard but we would have been much happier (if poorer) without him.

Sorry I guess what I am saying in a roundabout way is that maybe he would be ok during the early years but like others have said maybe the worry of it wouldn’t be worth it and what if he can’t cope when your child becomes older and more “challenging”?

You're actually looking for ways to justify leaving your daughter with people who you know to have abused children - you and your brother. I mean this kindly OP but I really do think you need counselling about the abuse. Before you leave your child with them.

Your father won't change. It doesn't affect him negatively, he still has his wife, he still has you, he has what he wants. He has no need to change because the current setup is working out just fine for him.

If you leave your baby with them, the same will happen to her as happened to you and your brother. Is that something that you want for her? What relationship do you want to have with her - one where she thinks you're responsible for leaving her with a known abuser? Or one where she knows you have her back and will always protect her?

Would your mother consider contacting Women's Aid and asking about the freedom programme?

If your mother wouldn't leave your father after he'd hit you, I don't think she will protect your daughter either. I realise it is not a nice thing to say that you can't trust your mother, but I am shocked that you would even think of leaving your child with them.

It's honestly hard for me to comprehend that people don't feel responsible for the happiness of their loved ones though? Maybe that is me being conditioned into that role but it's hard to imagine feeling a different way.
It is your conditioning. Because if your dad felt responsible for your happiness he would have treated you better by not abusing his family, and be in no doubt, what you are describing is abuse. And if your mum felt responsible for your happiness, when you were a helpless child, she would have taken you away from this.
I often hear about “owing” things to parents.. If I gave my parents what they gave to me, I would be a cruel and spiteful person, and so I won’t give what I “owe” them. But I can walk away and protect those who depend on me from the chain.
Why are you responsible for the happiness of people who didn’t care for yours?

It's honestly hard for me to comprehend that people don't feel responsible for the happiness of their loved ones though?

I'm not responsible for anyone else's happiness in the sense that I must live as they choose or make every decision based on whether or not they approve or will be made unhappy. Each of us is responsible for our own happiness in that sense. We are responsible for the happiness of our children until they are adults and capable of making their own happiness. So in that sense, you are NOT responsible if your mother is made unhappy.

Certainly we don't want to make our loved one's unhappy, but sometimes it's simply unavoidable if we want to do the right thing and/or be happy ourselves.

Your mother is just as selfish as your father. You feel this tremendous need to take care of her and tip toe around her feelings, but did she do the same for you and your brother?
She chose to stay and put yourll through it. You think you arent affected by this but you are. I wouldnt leave my baby with either of them.

You dont owe it to her to try and give her some pleasure in her life. She chooses this miserable life with your father. If leaving for her children wasnt reason enough then nothing else will make her do it.