To destroy my mother's happiness to protect my daughter from my father? Please help me.

[Haahhpy]

I'm sorry in advance that this will be long. There's a lot of history and the back story is necessary. I am worried about the influence of my dad on my daughter (12 weeks old) but it would completely devestate my mum to restrict her contact with her granddaughter. There are several aspects I need help and advice on.

My dad is a very difficult man. He is I think extremely emotionally abusive. He has been diagnosed with depression but I am unsure whether there is some other mental health disorder which is undiagnosed (he lies to the GP). His default reaction to any adversity in life is rage. This used to be directed at me and my brother but since we left home this is focused solely on my mum. He can go months being very nice and kind, he's very good at DIY and loves to help people. But then when something goes wrong (can be quite a small thing) or there's any kind of slight disagreement in the family he will just turn. He becomes so angry, shouts and yells, says terrible things, is menacing and hostile. This can go on for weeks or months with long periods where he just completely ignored your existence (as a teenager living at home with him he once did not acknowledge me or speak to me for three whole months). He also gaslights when he is in these episodes (and I know the term is bandied around but I mean properly). He hides things like keys etc, breaks things and denies it, rewrites history, swears black is white and makes you question your sanity. He has had therapy, he's on antidepressants, he's done CBT and mindfulness courses. There have been numerous 'showdowns' and ultimatums about his behaviour. Things will improve for a while and each time we all start thinking maybe he has changed but eventually he slides back to his old patterns of behaviour.

My mum is a kind, patient, gentle woman. She has spent the last 35 years trying to 'fix' him. She spends a lot of her life miserable because of his episodes. We have a very close relationship and speak or see each other every day (usually just us, not with my dad too). I have thought for as long as I can remember that she should leave which she knows but does not have the strength to do / chooses not to. I feel like my heart is actually breaking watching how much he hurts her.

Through the years there have been times when I gave cut him off completely but gradually for my mum's sake I have let him back in to my life. For full disclosure out of me, my mum and brother I am the least affected by him and his behaviour. I have never been afraid of him like they are. I call him out on his shit and will say it like it is (have told him to his face I think he's an emotional abuser). He hates this as he can't stand being disagreed with. Also, for full honesty he was physically violent with me a few times growing up (kicked me quite hard a few times etc) but as I said our personalities do clash and I always gave as good as I got (verbally as I was obviously no match for him physically). I have told him that any relationship we have is for mum's benefit only.

When they found out I was pregnant both my parents were overjoyed (it's their first grandchild). They immediately offered to provide childcare for her when I go back to work and were generally very excited for the future. My dad loves kids and we all thought maybe this would be a fresh start for him. Looking after her would give his days meaning and purpose and he seemed very positive about the future so all was well. We were all very hopeful.

Fast forward to this week. His estranged step father died (virtually NC for 20 years) and he's gone into a tailspin. Screaming and raging at my mum to the point she had to come to stay with me. All our hopes that he'd changed have been dashed again.

I'm now wondering if leaving my daughter with him is an irresponsible move. I don't honestly think he'd ever hurt her but I want her to be influenced by seeing positive relationships as she grows up, not abusive ones. However, when I broached this with my mum she was devestated. She's so looking forward to having her when I'm back to work the thought of missing out on that destroyed her. I know people will say she shouldn't depend on her grandchild for happiness but what else has she got while living with him?

So to my AIBUs:

1: AIBU to accept their offer and let them care for my daughter (possibly but setting good toke midels for relationships). I feel incapable of hurting my mum by taking this away from her when I think it's basically her only source of real happiness.

2: OR AIBU to be so hard on my dad when he does after all have mental health issues? I am so unclear in my own mind how much of his behaviour is illness or if it's abuse? Where do you draw the line? And how much should you tolerate while making excuses because of his mental health? I'm so confused as to whether I'm a cold bitch with no sympathy for mental illness or whether my mum is just buying into the old chestnut that all abusive men are actually tortured souls who need a woman to save them.

Sorry it's so long and thank you if you've read to the end. Any opinions or advice are welcome. Thank you x

Hi OP, I just wanted to say that having been through something similar, I hugely empathise with you. I am a year on from you and have learned a massive amount in that year from reading, counseling and mindfulness.

I agree with most of what has been posted here BUT it is damn hard when it is your life and whilst posters like me want to show you the way and give you clarity, it is such a lot to take in and a lifetime of conditioning to address. So you have my very best wishes for your journey and I'm sorry you have had a hard time. It would be awful if you felt you couldn't post for fear of criticism, it is a minefield and you will need a lot of support to get through it. And quite honestly you have done NOTHING wrong. You have a small baby too so your sleep and hormone levels may not be at their best!

I would start with some reading, please google topics around narcissists (your Dad has a lot of traits, but I'm not armchair diagnosing), enablers, co-dependency and FOG. Susan Forward's book Toxic Parents is also very helpful. Knowledge is power and whilst it won't change the situation, the clarity of knowing what you are dealing with and how it has shaped your views and reactions can be like a light bulb switching on!

I read recently that 90-95% of what feel about something is through our body, not our mind, imprinted on us from experiences in young childhood. In the same way we don't think about breathing or blinking we have beliefs that are totally unconscious.

So whilst rationally we can tell ourselves 'no-one is responsible for another person's happiness' If our body was trained something different from a very early age it takes time and conscious effort to change that belief.

Big hug to you.

Yanbu to feel upset for your mother however she is responsible for herself, you are not. You need to step back, protect your daughter as you say you will, tell her no and in no uncertain terms why. She failed to protect you and i suspect you had numerous abuse as a toddler yourself. As would your brother. You just wont remember and she won't admit.

She then has all the infornation, knows where lines are drawn and that you condemn your dad's behaviour and wont have your dd exposed to it. What happens next for her is her choice.

Given your dh is just realising this too, i would share this thread with him so both of you fully see the reality and can support each other.

Do you speak to your brother about this? I don't think you are strong and he is weak despite how they have labelled you. It takes strength to see the truth, set boundries and go lc.

"I just wanted to say that having been through something similar, I hugely empathise with you. I am a year on from you and have learned a massive amount in that year from reading, counseling and mindfulness.
*
I agree with most of what has been posted here BUT it is damn hard when it is your life and whilst posters like me want to show you the way and give you clarity, it is such a lot to take in and a lifetime of conditioning to address. So you have my very best wishes for your journey and I'm sorry you have had a hard time. It would be awful if you felt you couldn't post for fear of criticism, it is a minefield and you will need a lot of support to get through it. And quite honestly you have done NOTHING wrong. You have a small baby too so your sleep and hormone levels may not be at their best!*"

Thoughtfully written 🙂.

OP I hope you're ok as some of these posts must be hard to digest.

I hope you can find clarity with this soon  X

Sorry - looks like some bold fail there 😳

You don't need to move. Sit your Mum down, say that because your Dad's history of being abusive to you and your brother (and don't wrap it up, call it abuse), you can't trust him to have care of your daughter, and because your Mum has chosen to stay with someone who abused her children, you can't trust her to keep your daughter safe, so she can't care for her either.

Your Mum will be upset, of course she will be, but both you and your Mum need to face up to her part in your childhood abuse.

Do not offer her to have DD if she leaves him. a) If the threat of violence to her own DC wasn't enough to get her to leave, this won't be and b) even if she did leave, frankly the fact she stayed for so long suggests her judgement is terrible.

Get a nursery placed booked ASAP.

You don't need to hide the concequences of your mother's actions from her. Perhaps if she felt the reality of what she's done, prioritising an abusive man over her children's welfare, she might have left him sooner. It never helps to pretend.

OP, at some point in the future you and your DD will begin to talk about your parents and your father's abuse in particular. Ask yourself whether you are prepared to have to explain to her why you left her in the company of a known abuser, or allowed him access to her. The revelation will be devastating, whether or not your DD was actually abused herself.

I was in this position with my mother. She will not explain why she let the abuser be alone with us (the abuser was not my father but another relative). It vertainly need not have happened, ever. My mother has no idea how enraged I am with her (long story). In many ways we do still have a very good relationship, but I regularly have to take a step back from her for my own mental equilibrium.

I agree People
Come in hard on these issues

OP has done nothing wrong and this must be really bloody painful

Thanks for the more sensitive posts

I agree with stopfucking. The OP's view of herself and her relationship with her mother have been turned end over end. Her 'world' is arse over teakettle right now. It's natural that she's going to be a bit 'resistant' even whilst she's seeing the truth of it. She needs a bit of time to digest everything. I think in the end she'll do what's right.

I think if any of us had been told that our relationship with our mother was completely messed up, we wouldn't be able to easily say "Oh, right, I'll just have it out with her then and possibly destroy our relationship", even when we knew things had to change.

Absolutely agree with last few posters, this must have been very hard reading. I think it would be a good idea to read, re-read and reflect, the shift needs to happen within (and it's not a quick fix in my experience). I can't remember your timescales on the childminding OP but hopefully you have some breathing space to allow you to take it in and decide how you want to handle things.

One thing from my childhood is that I spent half the time trying to be the peace keeper, put others first, give my parents something to proud of etc and the other half being gaslighted, my feelings dismissed etc when I did stick up for myself.

It has been hard as an adult to actually know what I want and to trust my instincts on things, so I totally understand why you posted. The trouble is those lucky folk who haven't experienced it can't understand why you would even need to question it and those that have been through it know what you need to do, but you need to get there at your own speed!

"She's been telling her friends and family about her new future caring for her granddaughter. It just feels like the cruellest thing in the world to take that from her "😢

The cruellest thing in the world would be to knowingly put your little daughter in harm's way.
That's what you would be doing by letting your parents, or even your mum on her own, do childminding.

I suggest you show this thread to your DH and ask him to help you keep your child safe from your parents' dysfunctional behaviour.

I agree with PP's that you can't allow your DD around him. You also seem to minimise his actions somewhat and I find that worrying for the sake of your daughter. Your mother's joy from babysitting is not as important and your child's well being. In the cold light of day, your child is your priority and your mother is an adult choosing to live with an abuser. That has consequences, one being limited access to her grandchild. I realise she is your mother so it's not that simple, but surely she can understand your point of view?

There NO way that I would leave my baby with a man like that. You need to put your baby's needs first. I feel bad for your mum, but she also needs to think of her granddaughter and not her husband.

The reason so many people have not really heard you saying your priority is to protect your daughter is that you have said this:

My dad loves kids and we all thought maybe this would be a fresh start for him. Looking after her would give his days meaning and purpose and he seemed very positive about the future so all was well. We were all very hopeful.

You can either (a) protect your daughter or (b) seek to manage and control and fix your father (and manage and control your mother's feelings and fix her life for her. It can't be both).

You need therapy to understand all the implications of your instincts here - your instincts have been conditioned by the family system in which you lived, and they are a bit askew. You are right up beside the elephant and all you can see is the thousands of minute wrinkles in its hide, but a good therapist will help you step back and see the whole elephant.

You have a stark choice to make. It is incredibly difficult, but it is only complicated if you can't disengage yourself from the family role you have adopted and the self image you have spun for yourself. There is a lot to unpick, indeed, but it can be done.

I really urge you to study Toomuchtooold's excellent post.

I think OP has got the message

But as many posts have turned quite critical I don’t blame her for staying away

Very upsetting to imagine how she might be reacting actually

I had a similar issue though it was actually my mother who was the problem and I don’t think she was anywhere near the level of abusive that your dad is.

She cared for dd when dd was little.

Dds first memory ever is of being sat on the sofa with my dad and my mum storming in with a bowl of washing up water and throwing it over my dad! Couple of years later my mum physically attacked my dad, thankfully dd wasn’t there.

I stopped letting mum look after dd following this but we kept in touch.

A few years later my mum told dd something untrue and nasty about me and my brother. Dd told me what had been said and my brother confronted her. My mum denied she had said it and called my 11yo dd a psychopathic liar who needed help.

It was then I realised how bad things were. I always believed dd, the things she repeated are not something an 11yo could think up and were 100% the sort of thing my mum would say. She was prepared to lie and throw her gown grandchild under a bus to try and save face.

We haven’t seen each other or spoken in years. I started a thread on here at the time and was told quite rightly by hundreds of MNers that I needed to protect my dd.

You need to find a childminder or nursery. And offer your mum practical support to leave him.

Of COURSE you love your daughter and will protect her. But your thinking is so muddled by this insanely abusive and dysfunctional family dynamic you live in.
To have agreed for them to provide childcare in the first place was not putting her first. To think that your dad will magically change because the child in his care is a grandchild rather than his own child was absurd and illogical. For any of you to think that leaving your baby in that house alone for long periods was appropriate shows how wrongly you are all thinking.
Your mum knows full well what your dad is like yet she's bragging to her friends about looking after your baby? Your dad thinks his behaviour is perfectly fine and normal doesn't he! He's never changing.
And you, talking about uprooting your lives and changing career so that your mum doesn't get upset! That is beyond insane thinking. She made a decision to stay with her husband, she made it over and over and that decision has consequences. You feel responsible for protecting her from the consequences of her own actions.

Please get some proper therapy ASAP.

My dad loves kids.....well he didn't love you did he?

Morning OP, hope you are feeling strong this morning. Make sure you take some time to look after yourself.

"I think OP has got the message
*
But as many posts have turned quite critical I don’t blame her for staying away*"

I agree - talk about kicking someone while they're down. I think everyone needs to ease off now.

Your mother offered you up as a sacrifice to appease your father
And now she wants you to sacrifice your daughter to appease him

I found this post very painful to read due to experiencing a very similar childhood to the OP and now being in a similar position as an adult where I feel guilty for not being a 'good daughter' for my parents, for example by pleasing them by doing what they want me to do, despite the fact their actions have permanently damaged me as a person and ive suffered MH problems for years and have zero self esteem or self confidence.

I still feel like I was to blame for the abuse as I stood up to my dad when he was cruel to my mum, and in return got labelled a 'trouble maker' and was physically, emotionally abused and gaslighted.

I don't really have any good advice but I just wanted to say to the OP that I understand the mixture of feelings.

It’s such a headfuck and i’m sorry that there are so many of us on here who have been through similar.

I know this thread will have been difficult OP. Hope you’re okay.

Please get some proper therapy ASAP.

Please do this OP. Therapy for yourself to help you to put your daughter first, as you want to do.

I have not read the full thread but:

1. Do not leave your dd with them, he is a danger. Would your mum be able to look ayer her or spend time at your place with her?

1. Whatever the reason he is abusive, dangerous, not a good role model and is not keen on changing.

1. I can see the love you have for your mum through your words. Tell yourself all the above has nothing to do with that love. If these decisions hurt her you will also feel sad but that can not change what you decide for your daughter.