To destroy my mother's happiness to protect my daughter from my father? Please help me.

[Haahhpy]

I'm sorry in advance that this will be long. There's a lot of history and the back story is necessary. I am worried about the influence of my dad on my daughter (12 weeks old) but it would completely devestate my mum to restrict her contact with her granddaughter. There are several aspects I need help and advice on.

My dad is a very difficult man. He is I think extremely emotionally abusive. He has been diagnosed with depression but I am unsure whether there is some other mental health disorder which is undiagnosed (he lies to the GP). His default reaction to any adversity in life is rage. This used to be directed at me and my brother but since we left home this is focused solely on my mum. He can go months being very nice and kind, he's very good at DIY and loves to help people. But then when something goes wrong (can be quite a small thing) or there's any kind of slight disagreement in the family he will just turn. He becomes so angry, shouts and yells, says terrible things, is menacing and hostile. This can go on for weeks or months with long periods where he just completely ignored your existence (as a teenager living at home with him he once did not acknowledge me or speak to me for three whole months). He also gaslights when he is in these episodes (and I know the term is bandied around but I mean properly). He hides things like keys etc, breaks things and denies it, rewrites history, swears black is white and makes you question your sanity. He has had therapy, he's on antidepressants, he's done CBT and mindfulness courses. There have been numerous 'showdowns' and ultimatums about his behaviour. Things will improve for a while and each time we all start thinking maybe he has changed but eventually he slides back to his old patterns of behaviour.

My mum is a kind, patient, gentle woman. She has spent the last 35 years trying to 'fix' him. She spends a lot of her life miserable because of his episodes. We have a very close relationship and speak or see each other every day (usually just us, not with my dad too). I have thought for as long as I can remember that she should leave which she knows but does not have the strength to do / chooses not to. I feel like my heart is actually breaking watching how much he hurts her.

Through the years there have been times when I gave cut him off completely but gradually for my mum's sake I have let him back in to my life. For full disclosure out of me, my mum and brother I am the least affected by him and his behaviour. I have never been afraid of him like they are. I call him out on his shit and will say it like it is (have told him to his face I think he's an emotional abuser). He hates this as he can't stand being disagreed with. Also, for full honesty he was physically violent with me a few times growing up (kicked me quite hard a few times etc) but as I said our personalities do clash and I always gave as good as I got (verbally as I was obviously no match for him physically). I have told him that any relationship we have is for mum's benefit only.

When they found out I was pregnant both my parents were overjoyed (it's their first grandchild). They immediately offered to provide childcare for her when I go back to work and were generally very excited for the future. My dad loves kids and we all thought maybe this would be a fresh start for him. Looking after her would give his days meaning and purpose and he seemed very positive about the future so all was well. We were all very hopeful.

Fast forward to this week. His estranged step father died (virtually NC for 20 years) and he's gone into a tailspin. Screaming and raging at my mum to the point she had to come to stay with me. All our hopes that he'd changed have been dashed again.

I'm now wondering if leaving my daughter with him is an irresponsible move. I don't honestly think he'd ever hurt her but I want her to be influenced by seeing positive relationships as she grows up, not abusive ones. However, when I broached this with my mum she was devestated. She's so looking forward to having her when I'm back to work the thought of missing out on that destroyed her. I know people will say she shouldn't depend on her grandchild for happiness but what else has she got while living with him?

So to my AIBUs:

1: AIBU to accept their offer and let them care for my daughter (possibly but setting good toke midels for relationships). I feel incapable of hurting my mum by taking this away from her when I think it's basically her only source of real happiness.

2: OR AIBU to be so hard on my dad when he does after all have mental health issues? I am so unclear in my own mind how much of his behaviour is illness or if it's abuse? Where do you draw the line? And how much should you tolerate while making excuses because of his mental health? I'm so confused as to whether I'm a cold bitch with no sympathy for mental illness or whether my mum is just buying into the old chestnut that all abusive men are actually tortured souls who need a woman to save them.

Sorry it's so long and thank you if you've read to the end. Any opinions or advice are welcome. Thank you x

Hello OP, I've been where you are and I'm about 10 months down the road now (it's going to be a long road). Totally understand it, right down to wanting to move away etc.

I've got a couple of things to add, first of all in my situation I had an opportunity to go NC when my first child was a baby but I was caught in the FOG and didn't do it. I've now had to do all the detaching when my DC are 11 and 9 and it's been hard as the FOG had started in the DC too. It's the biggest regret of my life that I didn't set my boundaries back then.

Secondly, have a read about Emotional Incest (sometimes called Covert Incest). I know the phrase is offputting and gross but what it actually refers to is when a parent treats their child as a surrogate spouse and expects the child to support them emotionally in the way a partner would. This usually happens when there is dysfunction in the family. There's a book called 'Silently Seduced: When Parents make their Children Partners'.
Please consider reading it as I think you will recognise yourself in there.

www.amazon.co.uk/Silently-Seduced-Revised-Updated-Children/dp/0757315879?tag=mumsnetforum-21

@OrdinarySnowflake & @ResistanceIsNecessary

It's not that simple. A lot of women stay with abusive husbands as they're terrified of the kids having contact with their father alone!

The best thing to come out of this thread is that you are considering counselling.

You need help with this. A counsellor can give you room to talk about all this and give you the tools to deal with it. They are completely neutral. Do it, it can only help.

Your gp can recommend someone. Do it as a gift to yourself and your daughter. Don't wait any longer, grasp the nettle and do it.

Best wishes.

I wouldn't even consider leaving my child in either of their care. Your dad sounds like a monster and I'm afraid I wouldn't trust your mum's judgement at all either. She didn't keep you safe as a child, what makes you think your DD would be any different?

Your childhood sounds awful I'm so sorry you had to go through all that. Your dad sounds a lot like both my ex-FIL and step-FIL (also soon to be ex). And my DH is MIL's emotional crutch, as you are to your mum. MIL makes DH carry her emotionally and he is constantly dealing with her shit but she hardly ever takes the steps necessary to help herself. It pisses me off so much to see him shouldering everything she has put on him. She has never supported him emotionally when he's needed it and she is too selfish to see what a burden she's put on him. The whole family is stressful and draining to be around. I avoid them mostly and my children only see MIL with me or DH present as I don't trust any of them.

If not letting your mum have DD upsets her so be it. In all honesty maybe she should be upset... It's time she considered yours and your child's welfare and faced up to the shitty childhood you endured, rather than expecting you to spend your entire life picking up the pieces of their toxic marraige.

You are not destroying your mother's happiness. Your dad has done that and it sounds like she has chosen to stay with him. In my view you need to distance yourself, or they will suck the very life out of you.

Ahhh OP I really feel for you. It is easy for us as we come from an outside perspective to tell you that the relationship with your father is toxic and with your mother is at best problematic.

It’s not so easy as you say, when you’re the one actually living it. I’m sure there are all sorts of considerations you need to think about that we are not privy to.

For what it’s worth, from someone who also has issues with her mother, you are not responsible for her happiness. She is an adult. She allowed your father’s behaviour to influence your childhood to the point where you are in a position to have to post on a board asking strangers whether you are in the right for wanting to protect your daughter. Can you see how your mindset has been affected by your parents behaviour? It shouldn’t even be a question. Your father shouldn’t have access unless closely supervised. Your mother should not provide the childcare as, regardless as to her own situation, in the end she prioritised her husband over her DC. I have no doubt these things are difficult to hear and I’m so sorry you’re in this position.

I have no doubt that your daughter is your priority but please please take on board what PPs have said. Get some counselling to try and unpack your feelings. Please don’t feel as if you need to move just to spare your mothers feelings.

I know how awful it is to feel responsible for a parents wellbeing - but that is so backwards: they should be the ones responsible for you. Many for you and I really hope you get the best support you can. Best of luck.

I haven''t read the thread in its whole.

I have had this but from my exes parents. His F completely switches loving to his screaming abuse the next day everyone pretended nothing had really happened -all a misunderstanding and hot air etc. The first time it happened -I believed the apology. The second time and the third time I distanced myself. The fourth time -my marriage ended. The children had no more contact. My ex husband wouldn't accept no longer with his parents.

He won't change.

Record him -keep a journal -don't accept and don't minimise.

He is unwell, he doesn't seek help. His wife -was an enabler as are we if we take them back into the fold.

Cut the cord.

I did - my court order specifies my DC can't have any contact with my ex FIL and why.
Youngest was too young. Eldest had counselling. All are happy without them.

Stop contact now.

You can have joint contact in a public place -child care -no for either of them. Get your own.
Mother is welcome as long as no guilt trip.

Feel free to DM.
What does your H think?

I'm warning you now though that you will damage your child if you let him have unsupervised access and risk SS being involved etc -as he won't stop and someone somewhere down the line will report it.

I allowed supervised access in my home -but it didn't stop FIL going off the rails -when I had to call the police to get him removed - form my own home -that was the moment my marriage finished. Everyone hated me for it. But I wish I had down it sooner.

I wish I had done it the year before.

Your father is like an angry god demanding human sacrifices to appease him

Don't forget Op that this isn't entirely your decision.

Your husband must surely not want your daughter to be at any risk at all.

He can help you to protect your daughter.

Hello. I haven't read any replies to you but I've read everything you've written. I've name changed so I can write this as it's quite identifying.

I had a very similar father, what you've written resonates with me hugely. I remember first asking my Mum to leave when I was 6 but she never did. Like you, I feel I was the least affected. I think it was because I saw him for what he was and didn't feel the need to try to please him. My 2 brothers and my sister have been terribly affected. I'll tell you what happened when I had children. I still feel ashamed.

My children are now in their mid to late teens. My Mum always worked with children and was very keen to have my first child one day a week when I went back to work. We agreed she would do this at our house but only a few months into the arrangement she changed the plan so that she would come to our house to collect him and then take him to hers for the day. When I had our 2nd child we agreed it would be too difficult for her to have both of them so we stopped the arrangement, it was a huge relief.

My Dad put my son in the most danger he's ever been in his entire life. It still horrifies me that I allowed it to happen. I'd taken the children to visit my parents because one of my friend's Mums said she would pop round to see my new baby. My son was almost 3 at the time. Like your father, my Dad could put on a great show for other people; playing the doting grandfather / dad etc. My son was getting a bit bored so Dad said he'd take him for a walk. Mum and I exchanged glances but didn't say anything. Dad left with DS and came back 10 minutes later without him. He said DS had made a fuss because he wanted to go to the toy shop up the high street and didn't want to come back to the house so Dad got really angry with him and went home without him. He'd left him beside a really busy roundabout just off the A4. I ran out of the house and fortunately he hadn't tried to cross the road but was just stood there crying.

I never said a word to my Dad about it and neither did my Mum because we both knew how he would react and that she would suffer for a long time if we dared to point out he'd done the wrong thing. I must be more affected by him then I think I am because that's not normal parenting is it?

That was the only time my Dad had either of my children unsupervised.

I understand feeling responsible for your mother's happiness, I've felt the same way. In time I've come to see that she chose to stay with my Dad rather than to protect herself and the rest of the family. It's really helped me to see it this way because it makes me feel less responsible for her.

Hope this has helped you.

I must be more affected by him then I think I am because that's not normal parenting is it?

It sounds like you are now realising this, but.... No. It's wildly, wildly abnormal. I would have hit the roof, called the police, and never ever let my father see my child again if he pulled that stunt.

Very sorry your family is like that Champions, it was kind of you to share that difficult experience and self insight for OP.

No Puzzled I don't think op wrote that at all, a poster paraphrased what op is saying.

It's not that we don't hear you saying you'll do anything to protect your daughter, OP. It's that, bluntly put, we don't believe you. I don't work in child protection, but I wasn't surprised to see someone who does saying she would have serious concerns. In everything you type, where the protective instincts, the protective anger, should be for your daughter, is just... a blank. All your energy, all your care and protection, is directed towards your mother's feelings. Mum mum mum mum mum. And you seem to have no idea how grossly abnormal that is. I don't think that right now you are equipped to protect your daughter, not by yourself. Your mum has parentified you and groomed you to be her enabler, to enable her staying with your father, because that's easier for her.

What does your DH say? Because tbh, any sane parent with healthy boundaries would be hitting the fucking roof at even the suggestion of these people caring for his child. Does he come from a dysfunctional background too, by any chance? Because if he's just leaving this to you he doesn't have healthy boundaries either.

Thank you everyone. I am honestly grateful for each and every comment. Lots of it is a bitter pill to swallow and I can't deny that I almost wish I hadn't started this thread. But I am grateful for each new perspective, I knew I was too close to the situation to trust my own judgement which is why I came here.

I think every abuser is propped up and supported by an enabler. I also think each enabler is propped up by other enablers. It's easy to do and often starts out with good intentions. I struggle with it a lot.

Enabling people stops them from taking responsibility for themselves. It looks kind but it's not, it actively harms them. It is not kind to lie to your mum about why she can not do childcare. This could be the wake up call she needs.

I don't think op wrote that at all, a poster paraphrased what op is saying

Ah, I see ... if that's the case then the PP putting the remark in quotes and stating that OP actually said it might have been a mistake

I think I'll ask for my own last post to be removed, since it quoted the same thing ...

Where is your dh here? My lovely friend had a mother similar to your father. She had an episode while my friend was pregnant and upset her. Friends dad was an utterly wet enabler. My friends dh rang his in laws and said flatly that if this continued they wouldn’t see their grandchildren. Ever. It took an outsider to step in.

ZackPizzazz Absolutely. I think I knew it was abnormal at the time but just thought, "I'll make sure he's never in that situation again" rather than actually risking the fallout from saying anything about it. Something broke in me that day though. I look back now and see that I'm incapable of sticking up for myself or my children. It's awful to think that. My Dad died recently so I'm facing up to a lot of it now and will probably get some counselling to pick it all apart (a scary thought).

Haahhpy When you say, "But I am grateful for each new perspective, I knew I was too close to the situation to trust my own judgement which is why I came here." this is the problem exactly. Unfortunately I don't think you can trust your own judgement or your mother's in this situation; you've had a lifetime of training to keep quiet (even if you have been vocal at times) and let your father behave as he wants to. I hope you do a better job at protecting your children than I have.

Yes Puzzled, I think people are putting their own spin on it, op has not said such a thing. It is a very emotional topic, and close to a lot of people.

Haahhpy, honestly, find a good therapist you can talk about this with. It will be one of the best things you can do for yourself, for your relationship with your husband, and for your child.

@Puzzledandpissedoff I didn't say that. Someone was using a lot of poetic licence and paraphrasing me.

I am sorry if I have come across ungrateful. I appreciate all the input. I am taking it on board but as I said I will nerd time to digest it. The only thing I snapped back at a bit was the implication that I'm such a bad mother that people are losing sleep over it. I don't think that was fair because I've tried very hard to convey that I'll do anything needed to protect my daughter.

@ChampionsLeague thank you for sharing that story. It does strike a chord with me.

Your dad is an emotionally fragile man. He is unable to cope with normal life.

Expecting a man with these difficulties to cope with a baby's demands and then a toddler's tantrums is really unrealistic.

Your mother may well be deluded enough to believe that she can keep things under control. After all this time, she is also fragile. That is why you think she will be so devastated that she can't look after your dc.

Most grandparents are able to accept that their children decide who look after their grandchildren. The decision has to be in the best interest of the children, not just because the grandparents would like to do it. In your case, it sounds like your parents are the last option that you should choose, not the first.

@ZackPizzazz I think you're being unfair. The reason I have said more about my mum than daughter is very simple. My feelings for my daughter can be summed up in one line: she's everything to me and I'll do anything to protect her. There's only so many times I can say that! My feelings about my mum are more complex. There's more to say because there's more to unpick. That doesn't mean she's more important in some way.

I hope your able to find time and space to digest this.
I would also urge you to write into your will, who you would like to take care of your DC in the event you and your husband die/are incapacitated.
Even including a short statement explaining why your parents cannot be trusted with them. You don't need to tell your DM (chances that she'll ever find out are narrow).